9/11: Hoax or real

[Highway Chile]

Alright, the conspiracy nut has gone too far !



... or has he ?

For this 40-45 min. 9/11 Video (http://www.debatethisarticle.com/articles.html?id=71) many things stand out, but I'd like to know two things: Is Bush's reaction a "normal" reaction after being told the US has been attacked.
The other thing is - Why would the Secret Service leave the Commander In Chief unprotected for TWENTY MIN. while the US was "under attack" ?



This (http://www.public-action.com/911/jmcm/physics_1.html) site disproves some of the theories (WTC) that were put out by the media.


I REALLY (http://www.infowars.com/resources.html) recommend this site to all. (alex Jones/prison planet/infowars)
Please don't jump to the automatic response (IF anyone does) of "oh it's just a propaganda site", because it isn't.
BBC article. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1540044.stm) Surprise !! corperate media won't touch ANYTHING regarding 9/11.(all the info questioning the events on 9/11 is either in small/independant websites or foreign news articles)


Questions that MUST be answered (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jpdesm/pentagon/investigation77.htm)


Alright, this should put some doubts in your head. (http://www.geocities.com/purplesage23/theyknew.html)

This is a must read !! (http://www.public-action.com/911/robotplane.html)[\


] Great info here, as well (http://physics911.org/net/)

[NoteBOOM]

All I can say is if it IS a hoax, the nation will be divided, and the US will probably come to an end...:(

[Highway Chile]

Originally posted by gururyan
Could you re-phrase the question please, I don't know how to answer that....I mean I do, but I don't...get it? It's confusing. Yes - it was a hoax.(they knew/they set it all up)
No- the media version is what really happend.

[skip tracer]

I'm more interested in the Israelis who just happened to be shooting video of the WTC that morning...

[Highway Chile]

Originally posted by skip tracer
I'm more interested in the Israelis who just happened to be shooting video of the WTC that morning... Ahh ...
I'm glad you brought that up.
Here is some info on Israel's role in 9/11 (http://antiwar.com/israelfiles2.html)




... "someone" has been following these events ;) :)


Nice sig, btw, very wise words.

[cubby]

You know - the people in power love silly little hoaxes like this because it diverts attention from the truth. Why do you think that the gov't hasn't done anything to debunk crap like aliens at Area 51? Because if you keep chasing rainbows you won't find their pot of gold.

[NoteBOOM]

It would pretty uncool if this really happened... but it would be pretty damn interesting, and it might be called the single hugest event in written history. Of course, America would lose the rest of the world's faith... another reason to move to Canada! :p

[leeferdude]

Interesting...

[teleman]

Hoax or conspiracy? No way is it a hoax. I saw the real big hole where I once saw the WTC. The dust and blood my friend was covered in was very real.

[treefingers]

Originally posted by cubby
You know - the people in power love silly little hoaxes like this because it diverts attention from the truth. Why do you think that the gov't hasn't done anything to debunk crap like aliens at Area 51? Because if you keep chasing rainbows you won't find their pot of gold.

While the people not in power watch and do nothing except complaining and trying to figure out ways to crucify those that are in power... Strange...

[scxtt]

Originally posted by teleman
Hoax or conspiracy? No way is it a hoax. I saw the real big hole where I once saw the WTC. The dust and blood my friend was covered in was very real. exactly - hoax or not, a lot of people lost their lives ... i dislike this thread ...

[The User]

thats interesting...

[ElderberryRyan]

what about the fact that The administration was in a meeting about going after saddam prior to that?

[AndThenTheresMe]

Well. I was in New York in December 2001 and I saw Ground Zero and even saw them bringing out one of the last bodies. . . that seems to me evidence enough of the reality of the event . . . I hat this administration too, but I think that claiming they set the whole thing up maybe is just a little much.

[nobody]

Hoax?!?!?!

Good lord people, we all watched as the buildings came down. Even David Copperfield couldn't fake that.

Are your sure you don't mean *conspiracy*?

Let's get the terminology and context right and then we can discuss.

[spongemonkey]

There's no box for "both": It was/is 'real' but it's been manipulated by the Bush administration.

Have you noticed that none of the conspiracy theories provide any evidence to show what 'actually' happened?

[nobody]

Originally posted by Highway Chile
Yes - it was a hoax.(they knew/they set it all up)


You're going to have to provide far more than just paranoid conjecture and scanty amateur "theories" in order to make such a claim.

Extraordinary claims require equally extraordinary evidence.

[spongemonkey]

Originally posted by nobody
You're going to have to provide far more than just paranoid conjecture and scanty amateur "theories" in order to make such a claim.

They are all a bit wobbly aren't they?

The main thing they all seem to be suggesting is that a 747 crashing into the WTC wouldn't make it fallover, so there must have been a bomb inside, as if anyone knows exactly what would happen!

And then we get to the robot-piloted airplanes theory :eek: :eek: :eek:

I've asked this question on GG before but here goes again: Why is the distrust of Government such a strong element of American culture?

[nobody]

Originally posted by spongemonkey
They are all a bit wobbly aren't they?

The main thing they all seem to be suggesting is that a 747 crashing into the WTC wouldn't make it fallover, so there must have been a bomb inside, as if anyone knows exactly what would happen!

They probably forgot that airplanes contain fuel that burns at extremely high temperatures that would melt the support structure of the building causing it to collapse.

And then we get to the robot-piloted airplanes theory :eek: :eek: :eek:

What's more believable, that terrorist who have been plotting an attack like this for years would eventually suceed, or there were robots piloting thses planes? :rolleyes:

I've asked this question on GG before but here goes again: Why is the distrust of Government such a strong element of American culture?

It's part of the culture and history. America was built on distrust of government.

[nobody]

This one is silly:
http://www.debatethisarticle.com/articles.html?id=71

The article is making all sorts of claims about what's in these photos, but the photos are way too blurry to distinquish anything. I think this is a case of "You'll see it if you believe it".

[spongemonkey]

Originally posted by nobody

What's more believable, that terrorist who have been plotting an attack like this for years would eventually suceed, or there were robots piloting thses planes? :rolleyes:



Well as much as I like the idea of kamikzee tweekies I think I'll have to go with your first option, although I did hear that since the fall of the Empire R2-D2 has been seen studying the Koran:D

[cubby]

IMO the only "hoax" or "conspiracy" from 9/11 is the fact that it was turned into an excuse to attack Iraq. A country that, so far as the evidence has shown, had nothing to do with it. Just because someone has been to a country - it is not evidenc ethat the country was supporting or harboring them. If that were the case then many countries that are supposed to be out allies are "harboring" the majority of the people who are supporting and leading terrorist groups.

[nobody]

Here's an example of the conjecture and sloppy thinking with this "hoax" business.

It's from:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/bushlie.html

They say Bush lied when he said he saw the first plane hit the tower. Perhaps. But how does that implicate a conspiracy or a hoax?

[fiveways]

I'd be way more interested in this if they were piloted by robots.

Who wanted to enslave our race....Or am I getting reality and "The Terminator" mixed up again?

[nobody]

Originally posted by fiveways
Who wanted to enslave our race....Or am I getting reality and "The Terminator" mixed up again?

The old people. The old people are out to take control of the planet.

[greek_acrobat]

Originally posted by nobody
The old people. The old people are out to take control of the planet.

:eek: I knew it!

[Dan the Man]

This reminds me of when people say the Holocaust never happened.

[nobody]

Debunking 9-11 Conspiracy Theories and Moving Forward for The Betterment of America:
http://www.parthe.net/_cwg1203/00000028.htm

[Highway Chile]

A few questions:

1) where is the crater that one would expect from a plane that was heading down on the Pentagon ?

2) In the links I provided it states that for a pilot with MINIMAL training (like the hijackers had) to hit the WTC DEAD ON, would be nothing short of a miracle ... the "hijackers" did it TWICE ??

3) Is it standard procedure for the Secret Service to allow the President to remain in that school UNPROTECTED whie the US was (supposedly) under attack.

4) Why were these planes allowed to fly around over the nations capitol for TWO HOURS, when f-16 fighter jets can be scrambled to engage any enemy target in about 15 min.

==============================================
ABOVE ALL ELSE ... WHY OH WHY would the Bush cartel stonewall or hinder the 9/11 investigations (like we know from the numerous news articles in recent months)
Why possible reason could they have for not cooperating with the 9/11 investigation committee ?


_---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guys, please check out the links I posted. Thefirst one has NOTHING to do with any conspiracies. It questions the actual events that took place.

[Highway Chile]

Originally posted by Dan the Man
This reminds me of when people say the Holocaust never happened.
what on earth does this have to do with the Holocaust ?

Did the Nazis use jets to kill the Jews ?

What are you talking about ?

[i_finlayson37]

Originally posted by Highway Chile
3) Is it standard procedure for the Secret Service to allow the President to remain in that school UNPROTECTED whie the US was (supposedly) under attack.

After leaving that school Bush was rushed off to a air force base and taken into an underground bunker. I would guess that staying at the school long enough to do a speech was seen to be of minimal risk.

[Highway Chile]

Originally posted by nobody
Hoax?!?!?!

Good lord people, we all watched as the buildings came down. Even David Copperfield couldn't fake that.

Are your sure you don't mean *conspiracy*?

Let's get the terminology and context right and then we can discuss.
Yes, I should have used the word conspiracy.

I hope no one is questioning that the Twin Towers actually did collapse ...

[i_finlayson37]

Originally posted by nobody
They probably forgot that airplanes contain fuel that burns at extremely high temperatures that would melt the support structure of the building causing it to collapse.

Yeah, When I was at Uni we went over the report into the Collapse in Civil Engineering and one of the reasons for collapse was the fire heating up the floors above to the extent that they bent, once the floors were bending, a long with the impact on the building by the Aircraft it was enough for the walls off the building to buckle and cause collapse.

[Highway Chile]

Originally posted by i_finlayson37
After leaving that school Bush was rushed off to a air force base and taken into an underground bunker. I would guess that staying at the school long enough to do a speech was seen to be of minimal risk.
Actually, he was allowed to remain in the classroom for TWENTY MIN.

WHILE THE US WAS UNDER IMMEDIATE ATTACK ?!?!

[cubby]

Originally posted by Highway Chile
A few questions:

1) where is the crater that one would expect from a plane that was heading down on the Pentagon ?

2) In the links I provided it states that for a pilot with MINIMAL training (like the hijackers had) to hit the WTC DEAD ON, would be nothing short of a miracle ... the "hijackers" did it TWICE ??

3) Is it standard procedure for the Secret Service to allow the President to remain in that school UNPROTECTED whie the US was (supposedly) under attack.

4) Why were these planes allowed to fly around over the nations capitol for TWO HOURS, when f-16 fighter jets can be scrambled to engage any enemy target in about 15 min.


1) Yes - there was a huge hole in a giant building - I saw it. If you see the Pentagon in person you will realize just how

2) How so - anyone who's played a flight simulator could probably do it - it's take offs and landings that are the hard parts.

3) It was probably one of the safest places he could have been at the moment.

4) What planes were flying for around for 2 hours? Not to mention that an FAA flight control center doesn't have the authority to scramble F-16's anywhere and at the time there was no system for notifying the Air Force on time.

99.9% of conspiracy theories are nonsense and 100% of these are nonsense IMO.

[i_finlayson37]

Originally posted by Highway Chile
Actually, he was allowed to remain in the classroom for TWENTY MIN.

WHILE THE US WAS UNDER IMMEDIATE ATTACK ?!?!

Washington and New York were under attack, Bush was sitting in a school outside of there. If 9/11 was real then the Secret Services wouldn't have done anything too dangerous about the Presidents Life, if it was a Conspiracy then they wouldn't have made it that obvious.

The problem I have with conspiracies is that they seemed to be based on the fact that some random guy sitting in front of the computer typing away during the commercial break of X-Files is more intelligent then a large group of Military and Intelligence experts.

[i_finlayson37]

Originally posted by cubby
2) How so - anyone who's played a flight simulator could probably do it - it's take offs and landings that are the hard parts.

Exactely, I'm sure one of the first things you're taught when learning to fly is how to keep the plane going in a straight line, then the second thing is probably how to turn. Once you've lined it up just keep the thing holding forwards. I'm sure I could do it just from using Microsoft Flight Simulator for about 7 or 8 years.

[Highway Chile]

Originally posted by nobody
You're going to have to provide far more than just paranoid conjecture and scanty amateur "theories" in order to make such a claim.

Extraordinary claims require equally extraordinary evidence.
You're absolutely correct.




Jet fuel could not have caused the collapse (http://911research.wtc7.net/materials/flyer2/flyera.pdf)

[i_finlayson37]

Originally posted by Highway Chile
Jet fuel could not have caused the collapse (http://911research.wtc7.net/materials/flyer2/flyera.pdf)

THe first two facts there about fuel are simply trying to twist the truth.

At the point they crashed into the WTC the jets were reckoned to be holding about 10,000 gallons on Jet Fuel. Which might not be enough to melt the steel of the building, but it's definetly enough to bend it, the way the building was constructed, once the metal floors began to bend the building would be severly weakened

[Highway Chile]

Originally posted by cubby
1) Yes - there was a huge hole in a giant building - I saw it. If you see the Pentagon in person you will realize just how

2) How so - anyone who's played a flight simulator could probably do it - it's take offs and landings that are the hard parts.

3) It was probably one of the safest places he could have been at the moment.

4) What planes were flying for around for 2 hours? Not to mention that an FAA flight control center doesn't have the authority to scramble F-16's anywhere and at the time there was no system for notifying the Air Force on time.

99.9% of conspiracy theories are nonsense and 100% of these are nonsense IMO.

1) The plane was not flying 6 inches off the ground, it was coming DOWN on the Pentagon. Where is the crater ?

2) What are you basing your assumptions on ? Because I have a news article that states what I said.
C'mon ... so Nintendo provides adequte training to fly a jumbo jet ??
3)You can't be serious ... the safest place ? Again what inside info do you have to make such a claim ?
After all, the President could have been a target of one of the planes ... what kind of protection do you think the Secret Service could have provided for the President in the event that a jumbo jet is coming down at more then a 1000 MPH ??

4) Are you saying that Air Traffic Control was not aware of the hijacking ?
Are you saying the planes were not flying around for twenty min. while being hijacked ?

Cubby, you made your first post only a few minutes after I started this thread ... in all honesty how could you have studied/analyzed any of the links I posted.
The first link takes about 45 minutes to watch.

We have the right to come to whatever conclusion that we come to, however it's always good to have as much info as possible to make the most INFORMED decision.

[nobody]

Originally posted by Highway Chile
A few questions:

1) where is the crater that one would expect from a plane that was heading down on the Pentagon ?

That depends on the trajectory of the plane. If it was closer to a 90 degree angle, there wouldn't be a crater.

2) In the links I provided it states that for a pilot with MINIMAL training (like the hijackers had) to hit the WTC DEAD ON, would be nothing short of a miracle ... the "hijackers" did it TWICE ??

Who knows how much training they really had? Plus, flying a plane into a building isn't as miracelous as you think.

3) Is it standard procedure for the Secret Service to allow the President to remain in that school UNPROTECTED whie the US was (supposedly) under attack.

He wasn't unprotected. The president is never unprotected.

4) Why were these planes allowed to fly around over the nations capitol for TWO HOURS, when f-16 fighter jets can be scrambled to engage any enemy target in about 15 min.

What planes flew around the capitol for 2 hours?

==============================================
ABOVE ALL ELSE ... WHY OH WHY would the Bush cartel stonewall or hinder the 9/11 investigations (like we know from the numerous news articles in recent months)
Why possible reason could they have for not cooperating with the 9/11 investigation committee ?

A variety of reasons that no one knows about. Doesn't necessarily mean there was a conspiracy.

My main problem with these conspiracy theories are that they ASSUME and conjecture that there was a conspiracy when there is sever lack of evidence supporting it. All because there are a lot of questions that remain unanswered, or unconvicingly answered doesn't mean there was some sinister plot.

Again, extraordinary claims REQUIRE equally extraordinary evidence.

[nobody]

Originally posted by Highway Chile
Actually, he was allowed to remain in the classroom for TWENTY MIN.

WHILE THE US WAS UNDER IMMEDIATE ATTACK ?!?!

They didn't know it was an attack until after the second plane hit, and that is when they immediately moved Bush to Air Force one.

[Highway Chile]

Originally posted by i_finlayson37
Washington and New York were under attack, Bush was sitting in a school outside of there. If 9/11 was real then the Secret Services wouldn't have done anything too dangerous about the Presidents Life, if it was a Conspiracy then they wouldn't have made it that obvious.

The problem I have with conspiracies is that they seemed to be based on the fact that some random guy sitting in front of the computer typing away during the commercial break of X-Files is more intelligent then a large group of Military and Intelligence experts.

If 9/11 was real then the Secret Services wouldn't have done anything too dangerous about the Presidents Life, if it was a Conspiracy then they wouldn't have made it that obvious. Where are you pulling this info from.
Can you post something tht backs up your claims

[nobody]

Originally posted by i_finlayson37
The problem I have with conspiracies is that they seemed to be based on the fact that some random guy sitting in front of the computer typing away during the commercial break of X-Files is more intelligent then a large group of Military and Intelligence experts.

Exactly. It's not like any of these theorist have a Ph.d or any degree in structural engineering or Foreign Intelligence.

[Highway Chile]

Originally posted by nobody
They didn't know it was an attack until after the second plane hit, and that is when they immediately moved Bush to Air Force one.
Actually, in one of my links (fist post) it does state that the hijackers were overheard by ATC, and the pilots were able to send out distress signals



If you guys look over my links ... it all there.

[nobody]

Originally posted by Highway Chile
2) What are you basing your assumptions on ? Because I have a news article that states what I said.
C'mon ... so Nintendo provides adequte training to fly a jumbo jet ??

Not Nintendo, but there are flying sims that they use to train pilots that are as close to really flying as possible. It really isn't that hard to emulate Physics with modern high speed computers.

3)You can't be serious ... the safest place ? Again what inside info do you have to make such a claim ?

Whoa .... that's as specious as it comes. What inside info do YOU have to make the claim that this was a conspiracy? All you have is websites with amatuers making specious claims and arriving at conjecture.

[nobody]

Originally posted by Highway Chile
Actually, in one of my links (fist post) it does state that the hijackers were overheard by ATC, and the pilots were able to send out distress signals



If you guys look over my links ... it all there.

Sorry, it takes more than links to websites to convince me. I want EVIDENCE. And DAMN good evidence.

All I've seen in your links thus far is a lot of questions, nothing else, no evidence that there was a conspiracy.

[i_finlayson37]

Originally posted by Highway Chile
Where are you pulling this info from.
Can you post something tht backs up your claims

It's called Common Sense, if you had any yourself you wouldn't be running around calling 9/11 a Conspiracy.

It's simple common sense, if you were trying to set up a Conspiracy, you'd try and run things like normal and by the book, you wouldn't leave huge holes for people with nothing better to do to pick at.

[Highway Chile]

Originally posted by nobody
Sorry, it takes more than links to websites to convince me. I want EVIDENCE. And DAMN good evidence.

All I've seen in your links thus far is a lot of questions, nothing else, no evidence that there was a conspiracy.
fair enough.

[Highway Chile]

Originally posted by i_finlayson37
It's called Common Sense, if you had any yourself you wouldn't be running around calling 9/11 a Conspiracy.

It's simple common sense, if you were trying to set up a Conspiracy, you'd try and run things like normal and by the book, you wouldn't leave huge holes for people with nothing better to do to pick at. :rolleyes:

[cubby]

Originally posted by Highway Chile
1) The plane was not flying 6 inches off the ground, it was coming DOWN on the Pentagon. Where is the crater ?

2) What are you basing your assumptions on ? Because I have a news article that states what I said.
C'mon ... so Nintendo provides adequte training to fly a jumbo jet ??
3)You can't be serious ... the safest place ? Again what inside info do you have to make such a claim ?
After all, the President could have been a target of one of the planes ... what kind of protection do you think the Secret Service could have provided for the President in the event that a jumbo jet is coming down at more then a 1000 MPH ??

4) Are you saying that Air Traffic Control was not aware of the hijacking ?
Are you saying the planes were not flying around for twenty min. while being hijacked ?



1) A building made to withstand bombs had a huge hole in it - and there was a hole that went into several stories of the basement area. My ex-girlfriends dad is a civilian employee at the Pentagon and he said that almost half of the building had damage which is going to take years to repair. The plane actually came at a steep angle - not from directly above.

2) Microsoft Flight Simulator is actually quite realistic.

3) How could terrorists have attacked the school? The WTC or the Pentagon are easy - but to attack him at the school would take preparation - how would they know he was even there? After that - how the hell would they be able to plan ahead to figure out how to fly a plane into it. There had been evidence that the White House was not used as the target because it would be too difficult to target by plane - so how the hell could they possibly target a school on short notice?

4) That is not what I said at all:rolleyes: - I said that the FAA did not have the ability to notify the Air Force in time. There have been chages made since that have sped up the process and improved communication. You also said 2 hours - not 20 minutes.
) Why were these planes allowed to fly around over the nations capitol for TWO HOURS, when f-16 fighter jets can be scrambled to engage any enemy target in about 15 min.

BTW - I made my first post 45 minutes after your post and I have no desire to watch an entire film that makes about as much sense and contains about as many facts as a Nick Broomfield documentary.

[cubby]

Originally posted by nobody
Sorry, it takes more than links to websites to convince me. I want EVIDENCE. And DAMN good evidence.

All I've seen in your links thus far is a lot of questions, nothing else, no evidence that there was a conspiracy.

Exactly - anyone can write what they want on the internet, but that doesn't make it fact. I have to say that, like most conspiracies, the "evidence" sited is all conjecture at best and is completely fabricated at worst.

[Highway Chile]

Originally posted by cubby
1) A building made to withstand bombs had a huge hole in it - and there was a hole that went into several stories of the basement area. My ex-girlfriends dad is a civilian employee at the Pentagon and he said that almost half of the building had damage which is going to take years to repair. The plane actually came at a steep angle - not from directly above.

2) Microsoft Flight Simulator is actually quite realistic.

3) How could terrorists have attacked the school? The WTC or the Pentagon are easy - but to attack him at the school would take preparation - how would they know he was even there? After that - how the hell would they be able to plan ahead to figure out how to fly a plane into it. There had been evidence that the White House was not used as the target because it would be too difficult to target by plane - so how the hell could they possibly target a school on short notice?

4) That is not what I said at all:rolleyes: - I said that the FAA did not have the ability to notify the Air Force in time. There have been chages made since that have sped up the process and improved communication. You also said 2 hours - not 20 minutes.


BTW - I made my first post 45 minutes after your post and I have no desire to watch an entire film that makes about as much sense and contains about as many facts as a Nick Broomfield documentary.
I can respect that.

But tell me, how would you know what info/facts is contained in the video if you never watched it ?

[cubby]

Originally posted by Highway Chile
I can respect that.

But tell me, how would you know what info/facts is contained in the video if you never watched it ?

I didn't say I never watched it - I didn't watch ALL of it.

[elmoismyhero]

WooHoo! an on-topic version of that one KoRn thread!


In the case of the resemblance of the holocaust to this thread: The holocaust can be equally denied by the conspiracy theorists you quote, although many, MANY more people died in the holocaust than in 9/11. And anyway, people have a natural distrust of those (and the things) they don't know or understand.

9/11 is as real as your birth-- but your opinion on that may differ with your ideologies. It was indeed a bad thing, but don't deny it just because of how it's being misused.

[spongemonkey]

Originally posted by nobody
Debunking 9-11 Conspiracy Theories and Moving Forward for The Betterment of America:
http://www.parthe.net/_cwg1203/00000028.htm

Wow Carwash owners talk a lot of sense ;)

[spongemonkey]

Okay here is a site that supplies answers to all the conspiracy theories mentioned in this thread. including one that shows plane wreckage at the Pentagon

Now we have both sides of the "story"



http://ourworld-top.cs.com/mikegriffith1/refute.htm


Edit: While these do de-bunk the theories we've been discussing some of them do come up with their own even crazier conspiracy theories

[apocalypsecow]

Originally posted by cubby
4) That is not what I said at all:rolleyes: - I said that the FAA did not have the ability to notify the Air Force in time. There have been chages made since that have sped up the process and improved communication. You also said 2 hours - not 20 minutes.

And on another note on that same topic: Why, exactly, would the FAA ask the air force to scramble fighters? Did they KNOW what the hijackers were doing? From what i understand, the only contact made was from the passengers... Are the PASSENGERS going to call the air force, and get them to scramble the jets?

[spongemonkey]

Originally posted by apocalypsecow
And on another note on that same topic: Why, exactly, would the FAA ask the air force to scramble fighters? Did they KNOW what the hijackers were doing? From what i understand, the only contact made was from the passengers... Are the PASSENGERS going to call the air force, and get them to scramble the jets?

You've hit the nail right on the head there Mr cow. Nearly all of the conspiracy theories rely heavily on hindsight. Most of them, either explicitly or implicitly, ask the question "why wasn't more done to stop the hi-jacked planes". Well the answer to this is, as you say 'they didn't know what the terrorists where planning'.

What the conspiracists seem to forget is that 9-11 was the FIRST time a plane had been used in this way by hi-jackers. Prior to that hi-jackers had usually demanded the plane was landed somewhere. As a result authorities, as far as I know, have never attacked a hi-jacked plane full of innocent passengers, and usually tackle such things in a more passive way designed to minimise the number of civillian casualties.

And can you imagine the trouble the Bush administration would have found itself in had it ordered all four planes shot down before they reached their targets?

[wren]

Disclaimer: I don't think anybody's really going to take me seriously here because I don't remember where I read this, but it had links to every single news story it mentioned.

Whether it's all a big conspiracy or not, the Bush admin. ignored a lot of information. In the week of Sept. 2-9th, there were fifteen news stories from all over the world about a terrorist threat to the United States. (Once again, there were links to ALL the articles cited.) Some of them just spoke of a threat, while others gave the NUMBERS OF THE FLIGHTS, the NAMES OF SOME OF THE TERRORISTS, and INFORMATION REGARDING THEIR FAKE IDs. And the admin. did NOTHING.

[cubby]

Originally posted by wren
Whether it's all a big conspiracy or not, the Bush admin. ignored a lot of information. In the week of Sept. 2-9th, there were fifteen news stories from all over the world about a terrorist threat to the United States. (Once again, there were links to ALL the articles cited.) Some of them just spoke of a threat, while others gave the NUMBERS OF THE FLIGHTS, the NAMES OF SOME OF THE TERRORISTS, and INFORMATION REGARDING THEIR FAKE IDs. And the admin. did NOTHING.

I've never heard anything about most of what you just mentioned. However, even though I hate this current administration I have to say that it is not the administration's job to prevent the attacks in the first place. It is the job of the intelligence and law inforcement to prevent it. I can guarantee you that if the information had made it all the way to the administration that more would have been done to prevent it. Te true problem came in the breakdown of information in the intelligence and law enforcement community. If the specific information doesn't make it to the right people then it does little or no good. The administration, in hindsight, thought they could fix the problem by creating the Dept. Of Homeland Security - but all this has done is add to the confusion by just adding more bureaucracy to the mix.

[wren]

add to the confusion
That's what I was trying to do, and you RUINED it for me!:D

[nobody]

Originally posted by wren
Whether it's all a big conspiracy or not, the Bush admin. ignored a lot of information. In the week of Sept. 2-9th, there were fifteen news stories from all over the world about a terrorist threat to the United States. (Once again, there were links to ALL the articles cited.) Some of them just spoke of a threat, while others gave the NUMBERS OF THE FLIGHTS, the NAMES OF SOME OF THE TERRORISTS, and INFORMATION REGARDING THEIR FAKE IDs. And the admin. did NOTHING.

Honestly, I think this is BS.

Flight numbers? Names?
Pluh---ease!!

And there are terrorist threats to the United States each and everyday. If would take an unheard of amount of resources to verify or check on all of them and only a very small fraction prove to be valid.

[i_finlayson37]

Originally posted by nobody
And there are terrorist threats to the United States each and everyday. If would take an unheard of amount of resources to verify or check on all of them and only a very small fraction prove to be valid.

That's why all these flights between the UK and America keep getting cancelled, there's threats regularly but it's too hard to check up on all of them so they just take the safest option and cancel the flights. In the end we don't know if it was a genuine threat or just the Intelligence Services getting worked up over nothing, but it's best to be safe.

[apocalypsecow]

Originally posted by wren
Disclaimer: I don't think anybody's really going to take me seriously here because I don't remember where I read this, but it had links to every single news story it mentioned.

Whether it's all a big conspiracy or not, the Bush admin. ignored a lot of information. In the week of Sept. 2-9th, there were fifteen news stories from all over the world about a terrorist threat to the United States. (Once again, there were links to ALL the articles cited.) Some of them just spoke of a threat, while others gave the NUMBERS OF THE FLIGHTS, the NAMES OF SOME OF THE TERRORISTS, and INFORMATION REGARDING THEIR FAKE IDs. And the admin. did NOTHING.

While i don't necessarily believe all that, especially regarding how we knew *every single detail*...I will say this: It's a known fact that Bush and his people had been *warned* that an attack might happen. But like nobody said, there are tons of terrorist threats every day, was he supposed to pay attention to this one?

Hindsight is 20/20.

[i_finlayson37]

Originally posted by apocalypsecow
While i don't necessarily believe all that, especially regarding how we knew *every single detail*...I will say this: It's a known fact that Bush and his people had been *warned* that an attack might happen. But like nobody said, there are tons of terrorist threats every day, was he supposed to pay attention to this one?

Hindsight is 20/20.

I would agree with this but with one addition. I think Pre 9/11 Threats were probably looked down on because America in General always saw themselves as being Invincible and a lot of people wouldn't know why people would want to attack them. So any threats were taken with a pinch of salt.

[cubby]

Originally posted by nobody
Honestly, I think this is BS.

Flight numbers? Names?
Pluh---ease!!

And there are terrorist threats to the United States each and everyday. If would take an unheard of amount of resources to verify or check on all of them and only a very small fraction prove to be valid.

The only thing that I have ever heard is that there was "chatter" about flights being hijacked - but that there was nothing specific. That means that it could have been for any purpose pretty much anywhere in the world.

[elmoismyhero]

It happened, believe me. The buildings were actually destroyed. People died... lives were lost... suicides were committed...


Oh, and it was misused for "terrorist tracking" purposes.... i.e., storming iraq while yelling "Free the People!!" while bush admin says "when can we start pumpin dat oil?".... the patriot act and its upcoming sequel... Carnivore... or was that before 9/11? I dunno.


Case in point- what bush was able to do afterwards just might get him re-elected.

[Highway Chile]

This is a VERY organized and informative site. (http://www.thepowerhour.com/911_articles.htm)

For those who may think this (conspiracy) is just too absurd - I have a few words: Gulf of Tonkin, Pearl Harbor, 'Northwoods'...




***Keep in mind also, this administration has LIED before - their credibility is less than rock-solid

[cubby]

Originally posted by Highway Chile
This is a VERY organized and informative site. (http://www.thepowerhour.com/911_articles.htm)

For those who may think this (conspiracy) is just too absurd - I have a few words: Gulf of Tonkin, Pearl Harbor, 'Northwoods'...
***Keep in mind also, this administration has LIED before - their credibility is less than rock-solid

Pearl Harbor?

Every administration has lied and Republican administrations have done the majority - that doesn't make 9/11 a conspiracy.

Nixon and Kissinger caused the Vietnam War to be drug out so that Nixon could be elected.

Reagan promised arms for both Iran and Iraq so long as they didn't release the hostages.

It still doesn't make 9/11 a conspiracy

[nobody]

Originally posted by Highway Chile
This is a VERY organized and informative site. (http://www.thepowerhour.com/911_articles.htm)

For those who may think this (conspiracy) is just too absurd - I have a few words: Gulf of Tonkin, Pearl Harbor, 'Northwoods'...




***Keep in mind also, this administration has LIED before - their credibility is less than rock-solid


Stilll ..... none of this is *evidence* or implicate of a conspiracy. You're producing many red herrings and presuppositions, here.

And it isn't that I think it's absurd, there just isn't any *evidence* ... there are many questions, but as pointed out before hindsight is 20/20.

[i_finlayson37]

I can't help but feeling that all these people determined to prove that 9/11 was a Conspiracy is just another example of the pre 9/11 belief that America was invincible. The more people keep going on and on about how it was a Set Up by the Bush Administration the more deluded they're getting that there aren't violent and committed people who hate America.

[spongemonkey]

I know what you mean why do these people find it easy to believe that their own government could do this and so hard to accept that the real threat is from outside. It's almost racist, as if their thinking "well those A-rabs could never be that clever, only an American could pull off something tike that".

It's no coincidence that nearly all the evidence for the conspiracy comes from sites set up by "patriots" you know those guys who claim that the Government are the enemy and live in a shack with an M16 under the mattress.

You don't think these sites might have their own political agenda do you, that these sites are as manupulative as the official 9-11 story?

The best advice I can give on this is TRUST NO ONE. The official story is a manipualtion (but not a conspiracy) and the conspiracy theories are also manipilations.

Why trust one version of events over another?

[Toddrod]

Originally posted by wren
Disclaimer: I don't think anybody's really going to take me seriously here because I don't remember where I read this, but it had links to every single news story it mentioned.

Whether it's all a big conspiracy or not, the Bush admin. ignored a lot of information. In the week of Sept. 2-9th, there were fifteen news stories from all over the world about a terrorist threat to the United States. (Once again, there were links to ALL the articles cited.) Some of them just spoke of a threat, while others gave the NUMBERS OF THE FLIGHTS, the NAMES OF SOME OF THE TERRORISTS, and INFORMATION REGARDING THEIR FAKE IDs. And the admin. did NOTHING.

YEAH! And I heard that the terrorists actually crank called Bush the night before to tell him the attacks would be on the 12th so he would be distracted!

I place the blame for 9/11 squarely on the shoulders of Canadians! If they weren't so damn good at minding their own business, then maybe terrorists would have attacked them instead! It's a huge Canadian conspiracy! :rolleyes:

[Toddrod]

Can somebody please explain Bush's motive in this rediculous conspiracy? Are you saying he killed 5,000 americans on purpose for a 1/2 reason to go after Saddam? That's ludicrous!

[nobody]

Originally posted by spongemonkey
The best advice I can give on this is TRUST NO ONE. The official story is a manipualtion (but not a conspiracy) and the conspiracy theories are also manipilations.

Why trust one version of events over another?


Good post, man. Clear thinking is a good thing.

[cubby]

Originally posted by nobody
Good post, man. Clear thinking is a good thing.

That was a good post - it's important to remember that just because the government has tried to hide the fact that they are sometimes incompetent it's not de facto evidence that they were involved in the act itself.

[Highway Chile]

The purpose of this thread was to remind everyone that just because the media or 'big brother' says it is 'such', doesn't mean they are telling us ALL of the the truth. Don't be afraid to question things. As demonstrated here, people will try to shoot you down, ridicule you, etc. Don't let that stop you.

Examine ALL the evidence, and then YOU decide. Either it really was the way they said or something else happend. Again, look at ALL the info, and YOU decide. I, IN NO WAY want to influence any one's decision.

I guess not too many other people nowadays, like to question things. I have, and still feel that one must ALWAYS question things. Just me.:D


Get all the info - THEN decide (http://www.propagandamatrix.com/archiveprior_knowledge)



Btw, corperate media or corporate owned websites will (for obvious reasons) not publish this material. The links I have provided, including the one in this post, MOST ALL (if not all) USE LEGITIMATE SOURCES (Newsweek, LA Times, Rueters etc etc) I stated this in my first post, try to overlook the actual website and concentrate more on the INFORMATION contained in the website.



IN THE END: YOU DECIDE


:) :)

[i_finlayson37]

Originally posted by Highway Chile
The purpose of this thread was to remind everyone that just because the media or 'big brother' says it is 'such', doesn't mean they are telling us ALL of the the truth. Don't be afraid to question things. As demonstrated here, people will try to shoot you down, ridicule you, etc. Don't let that stop you.

Examine ALL the evidence, and then YOU decide. Either it really was the way they said or something else happend. Again, look at ALL the info, and YOU decide. I, IN NO WAY want to influence any one's decision.

I guess not too many other people nowadays, like to question things. I have, and still feel that one must ALWAYS question things. Just me.:D


Get all the info - THEN decide (http://www.propagandamatrix.com/archiveprior_knowledge)



Btw, corperate media or corporate owned websites will (for obvious reasons) not publish this material. The links I have provided, including the one in this post, MOST ALL (if not all) USE LEGITIMATE SOURCES (Newsweek, LA Times, Rueters etc etc) I stated this in my first post, try to overlook the actual website and concentrate more on the INFORMATION contained in the website.



IN THE END: YOU DECIDE


:) :)

I think reality is people still question, most of us have examined the evidence and come to the conclusion it's all bull****. Common Sense says it's bull****, intelligent thinking says the same.

Being realistic again one of the reasons Corperate Websites ignore things like this is because it's stupid and baseless and will only unneccesarily rock the boat.

Conspiracy Theorists are people who have either had something happen which wasn't how they wanted or they're twisting reality so it conforms with their Agenda.

[Highway Chile]

Originally posted by i_finlayson37
I think reality is people still question, most of us have examined the evidence and come to the conclusion it's all bull****. Common Sense says it's bull****, intelligent thinking says the same.

Being realistic again one of the reasons Corperate Websites ignore things like this is because it's stupid and baseless and will only unneccesarily rock the boat.

Conspiracy Theorists are people who have either had something happen which wasn't how they wanted or they're twisting reality so it conforms with their Agenda.
Yes, thank you.

I think everyone knows where you stand.

btw. GET A CLUE

[i_finlayson37]

Originally posted by Highway Chile
Yes, thank you.

I think everyone knows where you stand.

btw. GET A CLUE

I stand in the same place as the majority. Just because I'm not so paranoid I either won't believe people don't like America or that the Government will do anything to get what they want doesn't mean I don't have a clue.

[nobody]

Originally posted by Highway Chile
Examine ALL the evidence, and then YOU decide.

We will never have ALL the evidence.

Regardless, you haven't provided much evidence that supports your earlier assertion that this was indeed a conspiracy. Besides the questions and hypothesis that your links give, what good solid evidence is there to assert that this was a conspiracy?

I guess not too many other people nowadays, like to question things. I have, and still feel that one must ALWAYS question things. Just me.:D

I'm questioning everything, including your claims and your "evidence". How is that not questioning things?

Questioning things doesn't mean to take the other side, it means to actually question ALL the information, including the information that supports your own presumptions.

Btw, corperate media or corporate owned websites will (for obvious reasons) not publish this material.

The only "obvious" reason I see is that the claims these sites make are conjectures and lack needed verification and evidence.

[elmoismyhero]

if this was about the moon landing... that would be stupid.



What IS your opinion on that?

[cubby]

Originally posted by elmoismyhero
if this was about the moon landing... that would be stupid.



What IS your opinion on that?

Well I believe that James Bond already solved that conspiracy in Diamonds Are Forever.

[spongemonkey]

Originally posted by cubby
Well I believe that James Bond already solved that conspiracy in Diamonds Are Forever.

LOL

Now if he brings down the new world order in the next film, then we'll know it's true.;)

[spongemonkey]

Originally posted by Highway Chile
The purpose of this thread was to remind everyone that just because the media or 'big brother' says it is 'such', doesn't mean they are telling us ALL of the the truth. Don't be afraid to question things. As demonstrated here, people will try to shoot you down, ridicule you, etc. Don't let that stop you.




Erm I'm questioning both sides? I don't believe the government and I don't believe the conspiracists. Who runs the site IS important because of the way they are taking legitimate sources and manipulating them to fit their political agenda, in the same way that the Government has manipulated information for their political gains.

If you were truly prepared to question everything you would take this stance too.

The conspiracy theories are being ridiculed , not because we are all in the grip of mass media brain washing but because, quite simply, they are ridiculous. The last site you posted brings up some interesting things, things that need to be considered sensibly, using them to 'prove' a conspiracy simply distracts from the serious issues such as gaps in security etc.

The aim of both sides is to win you over to their cause, looks like the 'patriots' have got you hook line and sinker. Take your own advice and question them.

[lp_man]

Right I'll just say what i think. The war was not because of the threat of bio/chem weapons but for oil. Britain was dragged into it ecause Tony Blair does not know how to show himself as a strong leader and crumbled under George Bush. I used to like tony blair, not anymore.

However i do not blame any american person for George bushes actions. I think he is a single threat to the trust that america. Going to war was unjustified, take for example the veitnam war. The veitnam soldiers used geurilla tactics (some ratm songs mention this i think) and the geurillas used to hide when they were attacked, attackk when the enemy was vunerable and persue when the enemy retreated, but this is what the terrorists are using.

They have no country. Invading a single country is stupid. They are evrywhere and nowhere. Do you understand what im getting at? You can't and won't ever get rid of terrorism. Its impossible.

I also think that trying to blame him for the september 11 atacks is a bit stupid really. I dont think he would need that as a reason to attack iraq if he wanted to. 9/11 was just a trigger.

*Important to note: everything in the above post is of my opinion and was not ment to cause any offence to anyone*

[Talent?!]

Holy ressurrected thread Batman!

[deadhead420]

Maybe its just me.....but as Americans.....we're arrogant, gaping, assholes. We kinda sealed our fate, when we rejected the metric system...

[guitardude5489]

Originally posted by deadhead420
Maybe its just me.....but as Americans.....we're arrogant, gaping, assholes. We kinda sealed our fate, when we rejected the metric system...

and when we decided to be uncool and stop being British, what the hell were we thinking?

[cubby]

Originally posted by deadhead420
Maybe its just me.....but as Americans.....we're arrogant, gaping, assholes. We kinda sealed our fate, when we rejected the metric system...

The metric system is for wusses who can't handle basic math.

[Doctor J]

Originally posted by cubby
The metric system is for wusses who can't handle basic math.

"The Metric System
More correctly known as the International System of Units (SI in French), the metric system is the standardized method of measurements used by scientists world-wide. Designed during the French Revolution of the 1790's, it is now the official measurement standard used in all countries except three: the United States, Myanmar, and Liberia."

http://www.uen.org/utahlink/activities/view_activity.cgi?activity_id=10184


Yeah, we're in great company. :rolleyes:

Insert "coalition of the willing" joke here.

[cubby]

Originally posted by Doctor J
"The Metric System
More correctly known as the International System of Units (SI in French), the metric system is the standardized method of measurements used by scientists world-wide. Designed during the French Revolution of the 1790's, it is now the official measurement standard used in all countries except three: the United States, Myanmar, and Liberia."

http://www.uen.org/utahlink/activities/view_activity.cgi?activity_id=10184


Yeah, we're in great company. :rolleyes:

Insert "coalition of the willing" joke here.

Pfft, I can't help it is the rest of the world has allowed itself to become wussified.








;)

BTW- the post was meant to be humorous and, in no way, intended to taken seriously.

[Doctor J]

Originally posted by cubby
BTW- the post was meant to be humorous and, in no way, intended to taken seriously.

:D

[cubby]

Originally posted by Doctor J
:D

After all, we all know that the metric system was dreamed up by Craftsman who wanted to force everyone to buy new tools.

:)

[Nite_Maresz_25]

Wheres the option for "I Don't Care"??????????????

[mikey383]

Damn, this thread was done with before I even joined.
IMO, the thread starter is a punk-ass. I've seen several of his other posts, and disliked them. C'mon, in the "Jet fuel can't bring a building down" post, they classify jet fuel as "kerosene". The last I knew, jet fuel is really, really high octane gasoline that burns extremely hot. :rolleyes:

[VillageIdiot]

Originally posted by mikey383
. C'mon, in the "Jet fuel can't bring a building down" post, they classify jet fuel as "kerosene". The last I knew, jet fuel is really, really high octane gasoline that burns extremely hot. :rolleyes:


Jet Fuel usually is a kind of kerosene. I saw a documentary on the TWA thing like 7 hours ago which said just that.


Talk about timing. :)

[mikey383]

Originally posted by VillageIdiot
Jet Fuel usually is a kind of kerosene. I saw a documentary on the TWA thing like 7 hours ago which said just that.


Talk about timing. :)

Hmmm.... I've always been informed that it's high octane s**t. Guess I was told wrong.

[VillageIdiot]

Originally posted by mikey383
Hmmm.... I've always been informed that it's high octane s**t. Guess I was told wrong.


well it certainly is high octane... but I think its kerosene based, and not gasoline based.

[cubby]

Originally posted by VillageIdiot
well it certainly is high octane... but I think its kerosene based, and not gasoline based.

It is slower burning than gasoline - otherwise the plane would run out of fuel in a hurry. Gasoline is a pretty wasteful fuel.

Jet fuel burns slow and hot - one of the reasons it was so destructive to the WTC.

[maggot_b]

9/11 real or hoax?

3 letters:

M - E - H

[sdOK]

I had a few gigs in NYC at the Knitting Factory just down the road from the wtc in dec 2001.
The idea that it was a "HOAX" is as distastefull as the guys selling t-shirts and postcards of people jumping out of the windows on stalls next to the mobile morgue.

Try fitting a theory to the facts instead of fitting the facts to any wild theory. If you think hard enough you can make anything sound plausible manipulating facts and figures.

[easytarget]

To be honest with everyone, this post is way too hurtful to those who lost siblings, parents, and friends in the attacks. Even though i lost no one close to me, many people are sensitive about the issue and i feel for them. This kind of crap should be taken out of the forum

[dearly missed]

Originally posted by easytarget
To be honest with everyone, this post is way too hurtful to those who lost siblings, parents, and friends in the attacks. Even though i lost no one close to me, many people are sensitive about the issue and i feel for them. This kind of crap should be taken out of the forum


ummmmmm.....then why did you revive it after a two years of it being buried in the rubble:confused:

:rolleyes:

[easytarget]

just found it and had a comment on it. do you have an issue with that?

[dearly missed]

the thread was as good as dead until you resurrected it from the grave, which is the exact opposite of what you wanted.

You also have to understand that this thread was created in response to a lot of hoax theories in the media. The debate really wasn't whether or not it happened, which it did, and it hurt a lot of people. The real debate is whether or not the attack was simply a terrorist attack, or if there were other forces at work.

[Dan the Man]

This sure did get more attention than the Holocaust denial thread.