A guide to rack equipment by SHRED90

[guitargeek]

"A rack is essentially a large or small cabinet, containing equipment. From a guitarist's perspective, this equipment is to do with the amplification and effecting of the guitar signal, all kept on one enclosure, and controlled from a single control pedal. A rack may also contain utility devices, such as power supplies, tuners, wireless receivers, noise reduction equipment, and signal routers. The main advantages of a rack system are:

(Relative) Compactness. Everything is kept in one box, ready to be used. Everything is powered up at once, and there are no settings to get knocked, or changed on accident. Just a rack, controller, speaker cabinet and guitar are needed to gig with. Minimal cables onstage etc

Interchangeability: One of the main advantages of a rack over a regular amp setup is the ability to combine different makes of preamps and power amps. For example, you could use a Mesa Boogie preamp, with a VHT power amp, or Bogner Preamp, and Marshall Power amp. There are hundreds of different combinations to choose from: something which cannot be done with a regular amp setup.

Programmability: Most rack units are programmable. This means settings on your preamp and effects units can be saved into �patches� and recalled at once, by pressing one button on your control board (or MIDI controller(MIDI stands for Musical Instrument Digital Interface, and is a means of controlling musical instruments from various sources)) For example, you could have you�re preamp setup to produce a bass heavy clean tone, with lots of mid range, and just a hint of overdrive, and you�re effects processor could be set with a light reverb, and 500 milli second delay. These settings are then saved into a �patch� (it could be patch 1, 2, 3, 22, 45 etc) and the patch is assigned to a button on the MIDI control board (let�s say patch 1, button 1). When the player hit�s this button, those settings are recalled almost instantaneously. Then, for the next patch, you�re preamp could be set for a high gain, �Nu Metal� type sound, with little midrange, and lots of treble, and you�re effects processor could be set to produce a slow flanging effect. These settings could be saved to patch number two, and assigned to button 2 on the MIDI control board. The player then has two totally different sounds available instantly, removing the need for �tap dancing� between pedals, which could prove a nightmare, if there are a lot of pedals to be switched on and off.

Disadvantages:

Expense: While rack systems can be built over a period of time, to buy a complete system, with effects units, preamps, power amps and tuners etc, can be very expensive, depending on the quality of the equipment inside it. A small rack containing a power supply, tuner and effects unit can be quite cheap, though.

Size: Racks can become humongous as they are expanded. Power amps especially can get very heavy, and combined with the other equipment, can make racks very immobile. As a consequence, castor wheels can be fitted to the bottom to ease mobility.

Rack units:

Here are some of the things you may find in an average rack:

Power supply unit:

This, as you can guess, supplies power to every rack unit in the rack. It usually has a filtered and regulated power supply, to prevent noise and power surges from damaging the electrically sensitive equipment being powered by it. Some models contain two lights, to illuminate the rack on dark stages.

Examples: Furman PL8 Power Conditioner, Juice Goose

Tuner: Does exactly what it says on the tin, although rack tuners tend to have more features, and tend to be more accurate than pedal/handheld types. They also have much bigger displays than smaller tuners. Also, rack mounted tuners are much easier to integrate into a rack

Examples: Korg DTR series (industry standard. Recently updated), Sabine rack tuner

Pre amp: This unit takes the signal from your guitar, and amplifies it so that it is large enough to be amplified by the power amp. It also shapes the guitar�s tone, and adds overdrive. It contains controls for bass, treble, midrange, as well as gain controls, presence controls, and level controls.

Examples: Marshall JMP1, Mesa Boogie Formula/Triaxis/Studio .22, VHT GP3, ADA MP1/2

Effects units: These units process the guitar signal, by adding effects such as chorusing, flanging, tremolo, phasing, delay and reverb. They often have more control over the effects than individual pedals, having as many as 20 different controls for a single effect on some units!!!

Examples: Digitech 2120, TC Electronic G Major/G Force, Rocktron Chameleon, Eventide Orville/Eclipse/Harmonizer

Power amps: These take the signal from your preamp/effects, and increase the current so that it is large enough to push the speakers in your speaker cabinet. They vary in wattage, from 20/20, right up to 300/300 models! They can be tube, or solid state models. Most rack power amps are stereo, meaning they contain two totally independent power amplifiers in one unit. For example, a 50/50 watt power amp contains two 50 watt power amps. When used together, they will create 100 watts of power. These are especially useful when stereo effects are used, or, if one side of the power amp breaks, the other side can be used as a back up.

Examples: VHT 50/2/50, Marshall EL34 100/100, MESA Simul 2:9

[screamingdaisy]

Heeeyy!

Formal recognition with a sticky.

Looks like GG must have liked your material.

Good job bro.

\m/><\m/

[drl_06]

Could we make this thread sort of like Fiveway's "Ambient Equipment Guide?" As in adding info here an there about rack gear?

[guitargeek]

Yes. Please post any additions within this thread and we will compile it at some point.

Originally posted by drl_06
Could we make this thread sort of like Fiveway's "Ambient Equipment Guide?" As in adding info here an there about rack gear?

[drl_06]

Originally posted by guitargeek
Yes. Please post any additions within this thread and we will compile it at some point.

Oh goody... :D :D :D

[drl_06]

An audio switcher is a unit that allows you to contain equipment (such as effects units, tuners, preamps, etc.) in effects loops. These days, units like these are built so you can control which loops are activated with MIDI control. Each loop consists of a send and return. In a basic explanation, these units are configured as such (using effects units in the loops as examples):


--(guitar output)--->(input of switcher)--->(send)--->(effects unit)-->(return)--->


NOTE: The number of loops per unit differs from unit to unit

If you're using the example effects unit, the switcher sends the signal out to the unit, and the output of the unit goes back to the swticher, and the swticher sends that signal to another loop which sends it to a unit which returns the signal back to the switcher, and so on so forth.

Advantages: putting your effects (or tuner, or other units) in the loops of a switcher and rackmounting everything keeps things neat and orderly. You can also setup up patches that turn on/off a large amount of pedals at one time with the push of one button instead of “pedal dancing.� These switcher units also reduce tone loss. When you aren’t using a loop, the signal does not go through the unit in the loop and therefore does not alter your tone.

Another advantage to using one of these units is parallel effects routing. When doing this, you put your effects in the loops, but instead of routing the effects back to the switcher, you send them to a line mixer (I’ll do another article on line mixers later) where the mixer “mixes� them into your signal. This is considered by many people to be a superior way to use effects than the normal way of using effects in chains.

Certain units, such as the Axess-Electronics GRX4, automatically connects each loop, meaning that if no plug is inserted (har har) into the FX return of a loop, the signal is routed straight to the next loop. Other units, such as the Digital Music Corps. GCX Audio Switcher, require you to connect each loop with a small cord. This has it’s advantages: since you have control over how many loops you want to chain together, you could place 4 pedals before your preamp then place 4 pedals after your preamp.

Disadvantages: when you have a rack switcher/router and all your effects (especially non MIDI controllable units, such as single-effects pedals) in a rack, it isn’t easy to change the individual setting of each effects unit (this mostly would be a problem in live situations). Of course, if the effects unit in question is controllable with MIDI, there isn’t a real problem.

Another big disadvantage, like most rack switcher/routers, is cost. Certain units cost more than others, and for the most part it depends on the amount of loops you want. Units range from $220 for about 4 loops to about $500 for 8 loops. Of course, units will be more expensive depending on quality of the product, tone preservation, etc etc.

Suggested rack mounted switcher/routers:
Axess-Electronics GRX4 switcher/router (www.axess-electronics.com)
One group of 3 loops, and one stand alone loop (can be used for swtiching an effects unit or tuner or preamp, etc, or for switching 1/4 jack functions on other equipment).
P.S. Mario Marino, the head of Axess Electronics, is a great, friendly guy. He responds to e-mails A.S.A.P. (This doesn't have any real relevence to this article, but I just thought I should mention his great customer service).

Digital Music Corps. GCX audio switcher/router (www.voodoolab.com)
8 Mono loops, very high-quality unit. Will put a hole in your wallet, though. As mentioned before in this article, you must connect the loops together yourself, but this can be used towards your advantage.

Rocktron Patchmate: this unit is discontinued, but is a great unit. 9 stereo loops and a built-in Hush module. You'll have to check eBay or something to find one. You can download the manual for it here. (http://www.rocktron.com/support/manuals/patchmate.pdf)

Custom Audio Electronics switchers/routers (http://www.customaudioelectronics.com/audio_controllers.htm)
These units I don't have much knowledge with. The website contains manuals for these units, so if you're interested you can download them.

[stilwel]

Originally posted by drl_06
Digital Music Corps. GRX audio switcher/router (www.voodoolabs.com)

Just correcting the name and the link.

That should read:
Digital Music Corp GCX Audio Switcher Router (http://www.voodoolab.com)

[drl_06]

Originally posted by stilwel
Just correcting the name and the link.

That should read:
Digital Music Corp GCX Audio Switcher Router (http://www.voodoolab.com)

Thanks. I guess I mixed up GCX with the GRX in the name.

[flipperbaby]

Amen to this:D

[drl_06]

Originally posted by flipperbaby
Amen to this:D

I'll try to get that article on mixers written shortly. I haven't had much time lately, I've been studying for finals.

[flipperbaby]

Originally posted by drl_06
I'll try to get that article on mixers written shortly. I haven't had much time lately, I've been studying for finals.

i know what you mean, i have been woprking on 3 summatives that are already 3 days late:(

they are so stupid too..but gotta pass the coarse or now they can throw me in juvi:o

[MADIX]

Please do. I'm very interested in understanding line mixers now.

[drl_06]

Originally posted by MADIX
Please do. I'm very interested in understanding line mixers now.

Today was my last day of school, so once I'm done partying I'll be sure to write the article.

Yay! No school! :D :D :D

[jamie.pope]

At last, the work shred_90 put so much effort into has had some recognition.

I'm ever so glad i resurected it now. :)

Nice one mate.

[guitardude5489]

most useful/best thread ever!

[MADIX]

<---- Still here eagerly awating the line mixer write-up :D

[drl_06]

Line mixers do just as their name implies: they take multiple signals from audio equipment, and “mix� them together into two stereo outputs. This is valuable for people who wish to only use a single poweramp, or for people who wish to supply a single unit with many audio sources (this is called submixing).

In a simple explanation, a mixer works like this: a signal is fed into the “inputs� of the mixer. Then various other signals are mixed together with this original signal. After the various signals are mixed together with this original signal, you are left with a stereo output.

NOTE: I refer to the signal fed into the “input� of mixers as the dry signal, even though they might not always be dry in certain setups.

First, I’ll explain the function of line mixers in running effects in parallel (this ties in with my article on audio switchers). The guitar signal is sent to a switcher, and the switcher sends the signal to the various effects. The reason for using a switcher to send the signal to the effects is because the switcher allows you to mute the signals. These effects are then mixed together via a line mixer. This is different from running the signal from one effects unit to another, and is considered by many people to be a “superior� way to run certain effects.

Most line mixers have controls that allow to adjust the amount the signal that is mixed to the dry signal. Some units, such as the Rane SM82, allow you to pan stereo signals when they are added into the dry signal.

Most line mixers I’ve seen have “expansion outputs� that allow you to send the dry signal out to another mixer, allowing you to mix more audio sources to the same signal. For instance, using the expansion outputs on the Rane SM82 to send the dry signal to another Rane SM82 will allow you to mix together 16 stereo audio signals.

For a small example of the use of line mixers, look at my projected rig. I’m planning on using a Rane SM 26B to mix together my stereo wet signal from my GSP-2101 and my mono dry signal. I know it’s overkill to use a 6 input mixer to mix 3 signals, but I’m planning on adding a lot more to my rig in the years to come, so I’ll put the SM 26B to full use.

Suggested units:
Rane SM 82 Line Mixer (http://www.rane.com/sm82.html)
Great unit, but a bit pricey in my opinion. 8 Stereo mix inputs, expansion output, stereo effects loop, and balanced stereo outputs. 1U.

Rane SM 26B Splitter/Mixer (http://www.rane.com/sm26b.html)
Highly versatile unit, at an affordable price (I see these units listed at prices like $300+, but you can snag one for around $150 off eBay). Not only is it a 6 input mixer, but it can also be used at a 6 output splitter, a 6-in 6-out buffer amplifier, or an independent parallel effects unit, splitting the signal to various units and mixing them together again. The only disadvantage to using this unit for all-in-one parallel effects is that you can’t mute the signals fed to the effects unit (although there are ways to do this, using other units along with the SM26B, if you would like for me to explain one way of doing this, just ask) 1U.

Custom Audio Electronics Mini-Mixer (http://www.customaudioelectronics.com/line_mixer.htm)
Not too familiar with it, but from what I hear it’s a handy little unit. Only a half rack space, it actually is two mixers in one, allow you to mix together 3 stereo signals (with an expansion output from the first stereo signal) and then mix together two more stereo signals to the pre-mixed stereo signal… if that’s confusing, download the manual, there’s a really handy signal-flow diagram.

[Charles Robert]

This post is great! Thanks for the articles on rack stuff and switchers/routers.

Anybody has the Switchblade GL? Looks like the ultimate switcher. I just wish the 16 loops would be STEREO! Seriously, why aren't they?? I don't know of any rackmount equipment that only has mono nowdays... Is there a reason why there is no stereo loop systems available right now on the market, while more and more stuff is being made stereo?

Here's an example of my problem concerning mono switchers: I have 4 Line 6 modelers on my pedalboard. They are all stereo! Them 4 alone would fill up the 8 loops of the GCX! I know I could use them mono-style... but... they are made to work in stereo!! Any solution to my problem (other than getting a 100 000 $ custom Pete Cornish system...)??

[drl_06]

Originally posted by Charles Robert
Anybody has the Switchblade GL? Looks like the ultimate switcher. I just wish the 16 loops would be STEREO! Seriously, why aren't they?? I don't know of any rackmount equipment that only has mono nowdays... Is there a reason why there is no stereo loop systems available right now on the market, while more and more stuff is being made stereo?

I don't know who you are, but I like you :D

I've been ranting about this for awhile now. I don't understand why there aren't more stereo switchin units.

Although, there is a way to run the Switchblade GL in stereo, but then you'd have to give up some of your "loops"

I know a few guys who have switchblades, but they're all from the www.hugeracksinc.com forums. From what they say, they're great units, the only drawback is the price tag (suprise, suprise).

[Charles Robert]

Ah! I'm glad I'm not the only one wanting stereo loops... What is CAE, Skydstrup, Rocktron, Sound Sculpture, Digital Corp., etc. waiting for??

[stan18]

Originally posted by drl_06


--(guitar output)--->(input of switcher)--->(send)---> (effects unit) -->(return)--->


NOTE: The number of loops per unit differs from unit to unit

If you're using the example effects unit, the switcher sends the signal out to the unit, and the output of the unit goes back to the swticher, and the swticher sends that signal to another loop which sends it to a unit which returns the signal back to the switcher, and so on so forth.



wait i am not sure if i am gettin this. Can the midi controller turn on or off a pedal? if so, how does it do it?
or is it by having many loops in (effects unit) and use midi controller to switch between different loops? (the return is connected back the the midi controller right? and the midi controller has another input to amps?) if this is true, if you have a X pedal in loop 1, but you want to use the X pedal in loop 2, would you need to buy two X pedals then?

[drl_06]

Originally posted by stan18
wait i am not sure if i am gettin this. Can the midi controller turn on or off a pedal? if so, how does it do it?
or is it by having many loops in (effects unit) and use midi controller to switch between different loops? (the return is connected back the the midi controller right? and the midi controller has another input to amps?) if this is true, if you have a X pedal in loop 1, but you want to use the X pedal in loop 2, would you need to buy two X pedals then?

Right... sort of.

Example: you have 4 pedals, and you put them in 4 loops. You can turn on/off any of those loops you like, and when you turn off a loop, the signal just goes to the next loop. Pedals are always on, since you're just turning off the loop.

By the way, you can delete your own posts.

[stan18]

Originally posted by drl_06
Right... sort of.

Example: you have 4 pedals, and you put them in 4 loops. You can turn on/off any of those loops you like, and when you turn off a loop, the signal just goes to the next loop. Pedals are always on, since you're just turning off the loop.

By the way, you can delete your own posts.

is it possible to have more than 1 loop on? if so, is there a way to turn on more than 1 loop at a time without having pedal dance a bit?

[drl_06]

Originally posted by stan18
is it possible to have more than 1 loop on? if so, is there a way to turn on more than 1 loop at a time without having pedal dance a bit?

You can have all the loops on at one time, or 5, or 2, any number and combination of loops is possible.

Except, unless you have a Switchblade, you can't change the order of the loops.

Other than that, anything's possible.

[stan18]

Originally posted by drl_06
You can have all the loops on at one time, or 5, or 2, any number and combination of loops is possible.

Except, unless you have a Switchblade, you can't change the order of the loops.

Other than that, anything's possible.

ohh now i understand..... controllers are so cool!!!!

but the switchblade is rack mounted controller right? it doesnt seem to have foot controller, does it?

anyways just one more question, about the order of the loop, if you have loop 1 and 2 on, the signal will go through loop 1 first and then to loop2?

and one more where ddi you get all this infO?


big thanks to your help lol

[drl_06]

Originally posted by stan18
ohh now i understand..... controllers are so cool!!!!

Indeed they are.

Originally posted by stan18
but the switchblade is rack mounted controller right? it doesnt seem to have foot controller, does it?

Yes. it's rackmounted. And no, I don't know of a footcontroller made specifically for it (though I may be wrong)

Originally posted by stan18
anyways just one more question, about the order of the loop, if you have loop 1 and 2 on, the signal will go through loop 1 first and then to loop2?

Right, it will go through the first two loops, and since you don't have the rest of the loops on the signal goes straight to the output of the switcher.

Originally posted by stan18
and one more where ddi you get all this infO?

Step 1. Have no life
Step 2. Spend countless hours on this and other forums, soaking up all the info you can.
Step 3. Enjoy

That's basically how I learned most of what I know about gear nowadays.

[flipperbaby]

Originally posted by drl_06
Step 1. Have no life
Step 2. Spend countless hours on this and other forums, soaking up all the info you can.
Step 3. Enjoy


The rules of GeekChat!;)

[nocluejimbo]

Originally posted by drl_06
Step 1. Have no life
Step 2. Spend countless hours on this and other forums, soaking up all the info you can.
Step 3. Enjoy

That's basically how I learned most of what I know about gear nowadays.

wow, same here.

i cant wait until the mail comes today. its only the second time ever ive cared about the mail coming.

[drl_06]

Originally posted by nocluejimbo
wow, same here.

i cant wait until the mail comes today. its only the second time ever ive cared about the mail coming.

Oh boy, what's coming in the mail?

[nocluejimbo]

Originally posted by drl_06
Oh boy, what's coming in the mail?

a WeberVST Ceramic Michigan.

basically an EVM 12L made by Weber.

perfect match for... i dunno... maybe a Mesa combo of some sort.....;)

[drl_06]

Originally posted by nocluejimbo perfect match for... i dunno... maybe a Mesa combo of some sort.....;)

Oh ho ho ho ho ho!!

That's that one thing... I was taught it in school... what's it called? Oh yeah!

Foreshadowing ;) :cool:

[stan18]

Just went through some description of GCX Ground Control, how is it possible to select amp channel with that? see through, still have no idea:confused:

[nocluejimbo]

Originally posted by drl_06
Oh ho ho ho ho ho!!

That's that one thing... I was taught it in school... what's it called? Oh yeah!

Foreshadowing ;) :cool:

hot damn, it didnt come today.

tomorrow is judgement day. as soon as i get back from marching around in the hot sun for 6 hours.

[drl_06]

Originally posted by nocluejimbo
hot damn, it didnt come today.

tomorrow is judgement day. as soon as i get back from marching around in the hot sun for 6 hours.

[anticipation]

[nocluejimbo]

Originally posted by drl_06
[anticipation]

HAHAHAHAH

you think youre anxious, imagine how i feel.

not only do i have to wait another day, itll be one hell of a long day. i have to be at school at ****ing 8 in the morning. and i dont get off until 2 or 3. i dont know if im gonna make it. :(

[Calvert13]

I got a DOD 31-band, BBE maxizer, and getting a HUSH super C.

reccomend anything else

[RUSHFANnLV]

I think a rack is the next logical step for me but there is NO FREAKIN WAY I'm getting rid of all of my pedals. I couldn't live without my CE-1 or my Phase 90 or my DD-3 for that matter. I guess it would be easy enough to work a pedal and rack set-up with a loooper...right? And what about the cleans? How can a rack set-up reproduce the sound of a clean tube amp? Are the dynamics still there?

[tanglewoodstu]

Just redaing through this thread, as I was wondering if anyone had added anything about the TC Electronic G-System. Looks good to me...

http://www.tcelectronic.com/Default.asp?Id=6053

Love the fact you can rack mount it and also the 4 loops, but more importantly the 4 power output jacks for pedal powering those pedals in the loop. Looks like the guys at TC have really thought this through. Anyone got/used/tried one yet, I'm itching to put one through it's paces as TC make quality studio gear also.

While I'm in this thread, I thought I'd answer some old questions. You guys probably would have found the answers now, but just in case anyone searches...

Originally posted by stan18
Just went through some description of GCX Ground Control, how is it possible to select amp channel with that? see through, still have no idea:confused: The CGX outputs MIDI data which you would feed into something like this...

http://www.axess-electronics.com/_ac8.htm

or this

http://www.axess-electronics.com/_cfx4.htm

Basically you'd feed each unti the relevant MIDI data and it would convert it into the proper switching data for your amp.

Originally posted by RUSHFANnLV
And what about the cleans? How can a rack set-up reproduce the sound of a clean tube amp? Are the dynamics still there? Well an amp is made up of a pre amp stage and a power stage. What you're basically doing in a rack is having a pre and power stage in a seperate unit, this has both advantages and disadvantages. The main advatgae being that you can choose any combo of pre/power. So you could run a Marshall JMP-1 pre with a Mesa Simul 2:90 power amp.

I think you'dhave be be very careful to pick the right pre/power combo to reproduce the sounds of a clean tube amp. You'd basically need a closely matched tube pre and tube power amp. So, as with most setups, it might well come down to flexibility vs. sound.

Stu

[luke(ASIM)]

Im looking for a flight case for my rack mounted effects and my Amp head, it needs to be big enough to have 3 or more Rack mounted effects and a Marshall JCM2000 ? anyone know what the best thing to get is and where to get it from?

[nocluejimbo]

Originally posted by luke(ASIM)
Im looking for a flight case for my rack mounted effects and my Amp head, it needs to be big enough to have 3 or more Rack mounted effects and a Marshall JCM2000 ? anyone know what the best thing to get is and where to get it from?

eBay: Angstrom Cases (http://cgi.ebay.com/ATA-Marshall-JCM2000-Head-Amp-Rack-4-Space-New_W0QQitemZ3743528708QQcategoryZ38075QQtcZphotoQ QcmdZViewItem)

[wmorris]

Ok, so this is a godsend. I was thinking about this all day at work, and this was just the answers i was looking for!

However, questions!

G-Force, G-Major....
huge differences? I read both descriptions and the Force just sounds like a supped up version of the major.

What are the sound quality differences?

How about EQ? I saw someone say the noisegate had it...

What midi pedal do you recomend with this?

Can this switch amp channels?

My situation is i am looking to eleminate tap-dancing completely, one stomp and im done. My sound comes from my amp... i dont use a crazy amount of effects, (delay, chorus), but i do run an od pedal on my dirty channel, gives more focus.

sry im bombarding you with questions...lol im excited lol

thanks for your time!

[russell]

To answer many questions I just read...

1. TC Electronic G-System. You can read a very in-depth review at:

http://www.musicplayers.com/reviews/guitar_bass/2006/0106_tcelectronicgsys.php

2. G-Force vs. G-Major etc...

G-Force lets you arrange effects in any order... G-Major has pre-defined effects block routing. There are more programable controls in the G-Force. It also has higher-quality DSP, so you have even better sounding Chorus and Reverbs...

The G-System has the sound quality of the G-Force with the more simplified programing capabilities of the G-Major, but adds programable loops.

3. To learn about MIDI foot controllers (including a PDF with specs on many controllers), read this:

http://www.musicplayers.com/tutorials/guitars/2006/0306_MIDIFootControllers.php

Whew!

:-)

[falldowngoboom4]

Quick question. Can you use a PA powe amp (I.E. a crown 402D) with a guitar preamp. And, can you use a effects processor like a line 6 pod rackmount as a preamp? Thanks

[lucky13MK2]

Originally posted by falldowngoboom4
Quick question. Can you use a PA powe amp (I.E. a crown 402D) with a guitar preamp. And, can you use a effects processor like a line 6 pod rackmount as a preamp? Thanks

The line 6 POD series are designed as preamps/effects processors so you'll have no probblem there. Not sure about the PA power amp though? i can't see why it wouldn't work, might sound different though as it's not designed for guitar.

[uni]

PA poweramp will work fine. There are many guitarists that use a PA poweramp for their guitar rig.

[lucky13MK2]

How different is the sound compared to say, a guitar power amp?

I just assume it wouldn't be the same because a P.A Power amp would be 'voiced' or designed for hifi or amplification of a wider frequency range compared to that of a guitar, or am i just talking out my ass? :rolleyes:

[bad smell]

It would depent mostly whether or not you're using a guitar cab or a PA cab.

No matter what, if your running into a PA cab you're going to need some way to cut the highs and boost the mids. Otherwise you'll get a very drown-out-able fizzy mess worth of noise. Except for cleans which can sound nice.

As for a guitar cab, it'll sound suprisingly normal. You'll need more watts than you'd normally be used to (guitar amps are allowed to be run hard into noise area, while PA poweramps have many measures to protect against that very same fate). In short, a PA amp will sound very clean, and won't add any distortion to your signal. It won't sound any more bland than your preamp into your cab. You'll probably need to double your watts for a SS PA poweramp to stay out of the red (unless maybe your running a couple of V30 cabs each at 4ohms).

I'd say a cheaper/better all around option would be running your preamp into a decent SS bass amp. More controll and more fun.

[nofearfactor]

I changed gears recently when I joined a more extreme metal band and decided to go back to using heads for my pre& power amps instead of the integrated component systems I was using in my 10space rack.I still wanted my rig to be stereo and I still wanted to use my stereo/dual engine processors to help process my rig.So I downgraded to a 6space rack and kept the processors I would need .I was using a digital multi effects processor with midi controller and floor switching system in my rack and on my floorboard, but I just didnt need to do all of the midi programming I was doing with my previous band.Since I dont really use that many effects in this new band,I decided to use stereo in/out pedals on my floorboard and use a Radial Switchbone AB+Y switcher for the 2 heads.(The multi effects processor/midi controller/switching system is now being used in my recording rack).I now have a lot simpler operation,my rack is still my 'brain' and control center of my system,and I still have a stereo system with over 200 watts powering 2 stereo cabs.And,I dont really have to do that much more switching either.I dont mind it if I do have to do any anyways.Part of the process.

my system:
Guitar>wah>Radial ABY>channel 1/A-5150,channel 2/B-Randall V2>a line runs out of each head via their effects loops 'sends' into my floorboard loaded with all stereo in/out pedals and each heads controller footswitch>Ibanez MM4 ModulationModeler Progammable stereo pedal w/4 switches(tons of programmable choruses,flanges,phasers,etc-I really barely use it,only during a few clean songs)>Boss stereo DD6 delay pedal(always on,really light)>2nd Boss DD6(set at different,heavier delay time than the other for just a few songs)>Boss stereo RV5 reverb pedal(always on)>2 lines then run out of the floorboard into a rack of stereo/dual engine processors(5150-1/A,Randall V2-2/B)>Behringer 15band EQ/feedback destroyer(only using as a volume controller/feedback destroyer/filters,all EQ levels at absolute zero)>Alesis 3630 compressor-limiter>BBE 482i sonic maximizer>Rocktron 2CX noise reduction>tuner>Furman power conditioner>both lines then return back to the heads effects loops via their 'returns'.I use 2 stereo 4X12 cabs-I send 2 signals from each head,one to each half of 2 cabs- mixed with V30s and G12-75s.

Anything and everything electrical goes to the Furman p.c in the rack-leaving me only looking for one plug in at the venue.(I use OneStops and daisy chains for pedals on the floorboard,but I usually just use batteries for the wah during shows since the wah is so far away from the rack).My load-ins and load-outs are really pretty easy.Heads roll in on top of cabs;I carry in the rack;pull all of the cables out of the back of the rack and plug into heads and cabs and floorboard(I always label all cords and cables for our crew help);find a plug in for the rack;run the wah way out to the front on my side;then all I have left to do is go get my guitars.(I like to keep my floorboard back by the rig,since I only use modulation effects during clean passages of a few certain songs,and since we dont play that many anyways,its not a big deal to go back there and hit a switch when I need to.A light delay and reverb are always on,and a 2nd delay is only used on a few songs.Plus,our crew guy will hit a switch for me if I need him to).The wah tho- I use alot on solos and rythyms,so its all I really need out front.

[lucky13MK2]

Ok that sounds great, i plan on running a ported 4x12 with 2 greenbacks [30 watt] and 2 V30s [60 watt] so it'll be a 180 watt cab but i don't know how i'm going to wire it yet, but most likely 8 ohms.

Anyone got any opinions on the Rocktron Velocity 100 poweramp? the cheap one...

[stomped will]

hey guys, Im new over here, and I got this question looked inside my head for months now..

I've been a stompbox guy for 3 years now and love the sound I get from them but...
The thing is that over the years I've developed a different approach to my guitar sound and focus on sound building so I heavely depend on effects.
my sound has gone from straight raging riffs ala Tool to a mixture of A Perfect Circle and Porcupine Tree so by now you should get the picture of the sounds Im looking for.

my actual board is falling short to achieve that (my board has a vox 847 wah, a mt-2, ge-7 always on, ch-1, mm4 and a dd-6), and is a horrible tap dancing going from 4 modulation pedals to a single heavy sound, and I use lots of different parameters on effects (I usually use amplitube or gr as writing tools)

so the rack evolution has come.. i don´t like the floor multifx out there so thats why Im choosing a rack format

Im on a budget to, so theres no way I can get a G-system..

I need a fx processor/pre amp with an fx loop for my mt-2 and ge-7 (no way Im getting rid of any of my stomps, but this 2 are a must), I was thinking on a digitech 2101 and a control one midi footcontroller from digitech too..(remember Im on a budget here)

what do you recommend?

by the way my amp is a solid state marshall, and wanting to upgrade to a power amp and a cab soon, on step at a time.

thanx

:)

[guitargeek]

The new Digitech GSP-1101 might fit the bill. Amazing box for the price....

[stomped will]

Im going to check it out :)

[falldowngoboom4]

id look at a Ground Control system. you can select patches etc and you get to use equipment you are already familiar with and you know you can get the sounds you want.

[stomped will]

I've tought about it.. then Id have to buy the GCX switcher, but my problem with it is that the paremeters on every stomp would be fixed in every patch i recall, lets say my delay is the same on every patch and i cant adjust the feedback or repeats on real time, have another thats totally different in the same song, the depth on a uni vibe and so on. theres no fun in having such and expensive thing and twisting knobs in between songs

i love small details like having 3 different delays or choruses on a song and id need more stomps on my rig to achieve that, thats why i think the digital music system wouldn't fit for this case.

Btw, i was having a look at the digitech gsp that guitargeek told me, nice reviews and specs, looking forward to hear a demo.
(I live in small country, digitech rack equipment usually isn't on display, you must order it to get it here)

[stomped will]

So months have gone by and Im stuck over this.

I got rid of the mt-2 and the MM4, so my pedals are the minimum ever!

I recently purchased the model packs from Line 6 to work with my toneport, and I really like the sounds I can get out of the software.
because of this, a podxt idea has come to the eternal game, and control it over with the ground control pro, which is pre-programmed to work with it.

I've been considering a rocktron velocity 100 (the cheap one like someone said above) to go along with it and my cab, a Marshall MC212, or any non-all tube head

Where do I go from here?

[indytruckboy]

Just get a Gmajor or Rocktron Xpression. Get a simple midi foot controller and be done. Trust me. You will be MUCH happier and rack effects seem SOOO much better then there pedal counterparts, IMO.

[Lawjac]

For various reasons , I am wanting to switch to rack equipment. One reason is I play a marshall jcm2000 dsl 50 half stack, and no matter how I tweak( and ive used various distortion/od boxes in front of the clean channel) It sounds muddy. I know a lot of people say marshalls are known to be muddy, and maybe im just tired of the marshall sound. So, Ive been looking into different pre and power amps, and if anyone has or used many different ones, maybe you can help a brother out. First ive heard alot of good things about the VHT 50/2/50. anyone like?? Ive heard not so good about the mesa triaxis preamp. Any others that you like or dislike?? I want a distortion that is not muddy, defined clarity,silky highs, violin type sustain, got the idea??

Sincerely,
Stuck in the Mud!

[Lawjac]

Also any effects processors?

[Mr. Thrash]

This topic is too useful. I am a fan of rack gear, and I agree with all the advantages or disadvantages of rack gear. I just have to add that one of the most important disadvantages of rack gear (in my opinion) is to find the "problem" when you are playing. Especially playing live, when you don't hear your signal and turn back your head to your rack, it is a terrible headache to find what is not working. But on the other hand, you have a great sound!!!

I play with two preamps: Marshall JMP-1 and ADA MP-1, and I am really satisfied with my tone. However, I was thinking in change some equipment because... well That is always the possibility to want more, haha!

[nofearfactor]

My current rack rig-all pros and no cons.I'm loving it and never going back to a head/pedals/cab rig.
My old rig-Radial ABY box/2 heads-one on clean,one distorted(Marshall JCM800&JMP50 then Mesa MKIVs then 5150,6505s)/pedals,signal processors in the effects loops/stereo cab(s),etc-more cons than pros.For me.

Myself,I had more problems 'tracking down' something not working in my old style rig than I ever have with my rack rig.Way too many variables and possibilities of things that could and did go wrong in that system.With my rack rig I just go to the back and begin unplugging and plugging in a few patch cables in/out to find the problem,which is usually just a cable that went bad from some stupidass(me) pulling a cable out by the cable instead of by the plug end thus rendering the cable useless until some re-soldering is done.Or just replacing the cable with another one quickly and going on.No matter how high quality the cable is and plugs are that youre using it will happen if you do that **** and you will learn after awhile not to.I have anyways.

My rack:
Furman power conditioner
Sabine tuner
stereo preamp/effects processor(patch switching done with a midi foot controller)(I alternate between two different units for the different bands)
BBE dual channel sonic maximizer
Rocktron dual channel noise reduction unit
Marshall 9200 Dual MonoBloc power amp
Marshall 9100 Dual MonoBloc power amp(backup,half power alternative)

Playing in the 3 different bands that I'm in,I alternate between a Digitech GSP1101 preamp/effects processor(metal and industrial-metal) and a Fractal AX-FX preamp/effects processor (instrumental rock-metal-fusion).Both units if I want I could be run direct to the venues PA mixer at shows with cab emulation turned on and me not having to use 'real' cabs on stage.But for now I still like to mic up a cab or cabs.I will either runh a mic on each side of one stereo cab or a mic on each of two mono cabs.I am experimenting with the whole w-d-w(wet-dry-wet)direct run stuff.I know guys who just carry in their processors now and plug them right into PAs via XLRs with cab emulation on.For recording though I do like that I can run the processors direct to the recording mixer via XLRs or to the computer via USB with cab emulation on and record using headphones or speakers for monitors.The sound is so close to a real mic'd cab that I can't reall tell the difference sometimes.

So,I'm not missing the mess of dealing with finicky noisy heads,the limited use of only being able to set the controls on pedals one way,the complex cabling and switching,ground loop problems,etcetc.

With a rack rig loadins/loadouts are a breeze.I just roll in my rack road case,roll in cabs,grab guitars and multi guitar stand.To setup I just have to pull stuff out of the back of the rack case,plug cabs into rack,plug in and set up wah and midi floor controller out in front of stage.All I have left to do then is go look for one plugin to plug my one power cable from the power conditioner in the rack.Anything and everything electrical in my rig goes to the power conditioner in my rack.Plus,using a midi floor controller/switcher to change programmed patches in my preamp/effects processor I not only dont have a need for a floorboard anymore no more cables everywhere and the power supply problems you have using a ****load of pedals on a floorboard.

My particular Marshall rack stereo power amp is the most un-Marshall'y pure clean super wide headroom sounding power amp I could find.I'm running 6L6s right now, even though 5881s came stock in it-which are easily interchanged.A big change in tone from the usual Marshall EL34 tones?Ya.

I tried many different preamp/power amp combinations until I found what I'm using.And it didnt take much experimenting finding the right components or a lot of tweaking to get everything just right in my rack.I tried the Triaxis/G Major/2:90 system.The bands I play in didnt like any of the tones I got out of that rig.Then after I put together my current rack I first used a Mesa Strategy 400 power amp.It was too powerful for what I wanted.Next I tried several different solidstate stereo power amps.None worked for what I wanted.Then I found the power amp I'm now using and it was perfect.Marshalls newer versions of these power amps I'm using are the new EL34 100/100 or EL34 50/50,which use EL34s like most Marshall amps.I like using 6L6s myself as I have always used those tubes in the heads I used previously.

My rack rigs distortion and tone generation are way different than what I was using in my non rack rig.Actually,the exact opposite of what I was doing before.I used to shape my tone in the heads preamp stage then mix the tones with the effects coming in after the preamp in the effects loop, then my tone went on to the power amp and got mixed with the power amps tube saturation generated distortion,then on to the cabs.Playing metal I was just never one to use distortion pedals in front of clean amps,or distortion that was generated pre preamp.I bought heads for their distinct distortion tones-which were generated in the power amps power tube stage and it took really cooking those power tubes to get what I wanted out of them.And there for sure was no late at night playing at low volumes or running a low volume feed direct to boards to record,etc.Tube heads to me sound like crap down low volume.I love the sound and feel of playing through a tube head being driven to hell,but the stuff that comes with using that type of sound just began to be too much of a hassle for me after awhile.And when I started playing in more than one type of band with different types of material-that one trick pony rig was just not going to cut it any more.I needed more flexibility.The flexibility that only a rack preamp/effects processor with the ability to program many different types of sounds into patches could provide me.

I now ironically use distortions generated in the preamp stage via amp modeling and then mix the distortion tones with the processors onboard tone/effects libraries and then basically output the tones Ive generated into a super high watt clean running stereo/dual mono channel tube power amp.For cabs I run stereo into either one Marshall 1960 cab on stereo or into 2 1960s both running in mono.And,when using 2 1960 cabs,an A and a B, I like to run them side by side instead of in the traditional stack style.That way I get way better stereo seperation and effects like pingpong delays really stand out better.

If youre asking why dont I just run a solidstate power amp instead of a tube power amp if I'm not after an overdriven power tube type saturation,the answer is I did try a few out when putting the rig together.And they made my tone sound really harsh,fake,way too sterile and digital,etcetc.I use sterile sounding, absolute zero EQ EMG actives in all of my guitars and play a sterile,digital type of sound in the bands I'm in-so what type of power amp I used shouldnt have mattered-but it did for some reason.Rack tube power amps just sound that much better than solidstate,even when using them for cold sterile clean power, and they really inhance the tones generated by the preamp/effects processors.

Now I can play at any volume and get the same tones.And I can go out now at 2am in my home rehearsal space and be able to get some rehearsing or recording in without having to run my rig into an Iso cab or use a power brake like I was doing before if I wanted to play or record late at night.

Just my 2 cents worth.Sorry for the novel.