Recording Drums...(and making them sound soft)

[guitarose]

So..

I'm playing electric guitars and bass and co-producing a friends project. anyway, for the songs with live drums, i really want a soft sound - especially on the snare. for an example of what i want, check out "This Time" by the Verve. though it's all clear, the snare doesnt cut, it kinda sounds soft and smooth..

...does anyone have any tips on how to achieve said sound?

I've also never actually recorded drums...i know it's hard to, but i have a few simple techniques i've read up on that i intend to use...but i specifically want to know about getting a very soft snare sound.

thanks for the help!

[Moo]

You want less attack, less 'crack'? Use a compressor on the track, use a quick attack. The longer the release time, the more gentle the hit will sound, but use your judgment, don't get carried away.

Most unique drum sounds you hear on a record are that way because of processing, not miking.

[Johnny the Boy]

I can't listen to the song at the moment, but usually how I get a 'soft sound' involves the following:

Firstly, tune the drum down A LITTLE. If it goes too far you will get a really dead, grungey sound so be careful. Having a really thick drumhead makes this alot easier, but be sure not to tune it down too much because step 2 is:

Get a floating ring muffler, around 2" wide. Evans makes a great one, it can be had for about a dollar. This cuts alot of harsh, high overtones and makes the drum sound much fatter. However, if the drum is too loose already it will make it sound like you're beating a dead horse. Sick.

When it comes time to record, place mic's how you usually would but make sure whoever is drumming hits the snare in the middle of the head.

After that, it is all EQ and compression. I'm still new to compression, personally but Moo knows what's up.

If this gets you the wrong sound, I apologize - my soundcard is a little wonky right now so I couldn't actually listen to the Verve song. These steps will supply you with a fat, squishy sound that is defined yet non-confrontational. Varying the tension of the snare wires should give you massive control over the final 'feel' as well so be sure to experiment with that.

Hope it helps!

[bad smell]

Not sure if it would sound wrong, but have you tried using a brush for the snare? Hitting far along the outside (a bit lighter than usual) can also soften the attack. I'd think brushes would be the way to go for a softer sound

[MrZosoNP]

unorthodox I know but, on sat I was covering Kid A at a show and the drummer put a sheet over all his shells for that tune to get a softer sound. it sounded really nice.

[guitarose]

Originally posted by Moo
You want less attack, less 'crack'? Use a compressor on the track, use a quick attack. The longer the release time, the more gentle the hit will sound, but use your judgment, don't get carried away.

Most unique drum sounds you hear on a record are that way because of processing, not miking.

Is this post recording processing, or does it have to be in the front end? I only have plugins (and a dynacomp)..

Also, one of the techniques for miking i was gna try involved 2 close overheads, with no close miking except for the bass drum, would the compression needed for that snare sounds mess up the res of the kit's sound?

[guitarose]

Originally posted by bad smell
Not sure if it would sound wrong, but have you tried using a brush for the snare? Hitting far along the outside (a bit lighter than usual) can also soften the attack. I'd think brushes would be the way to go for a softer sound

I'm after soft stick sounds...i used to be a drummer, so i can tell the diff easily...but i think playing outside the centre of the snare may help...thanks

[guitarose]

Originally posted by MrZosoNP
unorthodox I know but, on sat I was covering Kid A at a show and the drummer put a sheet over all his shells for that tune to get a softer sound. it sounded really nice.

now that you mention it, i think i read that chad smith did that for hard to concentrate..

..did your drummer have it pulled in so the sheet was touching the snare head, or was it pulled/hanging over the rim? (hope that made sense)

thanks for the tips guys..i wana get all the info i need now whilst the drummer's away..

..feel free to chip in with any other recording tips.

thanks.

[boyecho]

what about those fancy 'hot rods' sticks? i love the way those sound for calmer, softer drumming.

[Moo]

Originally posted by guitarose
Is this post recording processing, or does it have to be in the front end? I only have plugins (and a dynacomp)..

Also, one of the techniques for miking i was gna try involved 2 close overheads, with no close miking except for the bass drum, would the compression needed for that snare sounds mess up the res of the kit's sound?

Post recording, yes. It's usually better to do any effects post recording.

[iaresee]

Originally posted by guitarose
I'm after soft stick sounds...i used to be a drummer, so i can tell the diff easily...but i think playing outside the centre of the snare may help...thanks
I've always found it easier to get the sound your after live and then capture that. I find heavy post-processing to get a particularly sound non-intuitive and frustrating. Where as experimenting with live sounds I find infinitely more fun and rewarding. I'm weird like that.

What about having your drummer try something like Rute's (http://www.vintagedrum.com/item/Vic-Firth-RUTE-Rute-Sticks-UP-RUTE) on his kit? Or try wrapping a bit of terry cloth towel around the tips of his sticks?

You could also try to muffle everything. Pack some towels in the toms and blankets in the kit. Harder to do with a snare but try draping a bit of cloth over the top head.

[guitarose]

Thanks for all that..but out of interest, has anyone been able to listen to the song? i know/think there's some ddrum layering on it, but the snare sound is just great. the reason i ask is because it's stil a little crisp, and some of these methods could end up a bit muffled sounding IMO (though i appreciate i gotta try them first).

and moo; would the compression needed for that snare sound mess up the rest of the kit's sound? bearing in mind i'm not close miking.

[iaresee]

Originally posted by guitarose
Thanks for all that..but out of interest, has anyone been able to listen to the song?
What? You want me to stop pulling random advice out of my ass now? :D I'm at work now, but I'll have a listen to the track when I'm home and near my CD collection and get back to you.

i know/think there's some ddrum layering on it, but the snare sound is just great. the reason i ask is because it's stil a little crisp, and some of these methods could end up a bit muffled sounding IMO (though i appreciate i gotta try them first).
Ahh, I always forget about mixing samples in with live drums. That's not a bad idea but I personally find it labour intensive. Might be the kind of thing that gets easier the more you use the trick but I hated trying to line up samples with the live track. Tried it twice to replace crappy sounding toms in songs. Ugh. Hours in front of Cubase I'll never have back...

Try different materials. A nice table cloth on the snare might work. Or try taping the snares a bit so they don't impart so much spring into the sound. Experiment, experiment, experiment.

and moo; would the compression needed for that snare sound mess up the rest of the kit's sound? bearing in mind i'm not close miking.
You'd have to take your tracks and try to apply the compressor to just the portions that have snare. Maybe you could over head mic the kit, but close mic the snare. And then compress the close mic'ed track and hope that the snare isn't that prominent in the overheads. Man, I hate recording drums! :)

[guitarose]

Originally posted by iaresee
What? You want me to stop pulling random advice out of my ass now? :D I'm at work now, but I'll have a listen to the track when I'm home and near my CD collection and get back to you.

Well all things considered, u must have quite a smart ass, but yes, i think it'd be a tad more helpful if you listened to what i had in mind!...but thanx very much!

Ahh, I always forget about mixing samples in with live drums. That's not a bad idea but I personally find it labour intensive. Might be the kind of thing that gets easier the more you use the trick but I hated trying to line up samples with the live track. Tried it twice to replace crappy sounding toms in songs. Ugh. Hours in front of Cubase I'll never have back...

Well the other dude producing is very good with electronic stuff/programming etc...He has more producing experience, but I'm far more well read on stuff, and research in places like GG, so i can often 'know' what needs to be done instead of trial and error (hence i'm responsible for sorting out the drums), but he could do stuff like that pretty well i think..

Try different materials. A nice table cloth on the snare might work. Or try taping the snares a bit so they don't impart so much spring into the sound. Experiment, experiment, experiment.

I intend to, and those are good ideas..keep em coming! The problem is i need to be able to work as quickly as possible, because it's so hard to find free time with all of us..

You'd have to take your tracks and try to apply the compressor to just the portions that have snare. Maybe you could over head mic the kit, but close mic the snare. And then compress the close mic'ed track and hope that the snare isn't that prominent in the overheads. Man, I hate recording drums!

Cool..will try the method i had with a mic on the snare...sm57 or 58 will do right? i currently only have 1 condenser, as does the other dude producing, so that's the overheads, plus the sm on the snare, and the method i wana follow had another on the bass...would that work? I was also thinking of chucking another in the room for a room sound..

i'm actually looking forwards to the challenge...but then i'm yet to actually attempt it!:rolleyes: :p

[guitarose]

Originally posted by iaresee
What? You want me to stop pulling random advice out of my ass now? :D I'm at work now, but I'll have a listen to the track when I'm home and near my CD collection and get back to you.

So..any chance of that?


And bump to anyone else who wants to contribute, to the soft snare sound, or drum recording/production in general!

[iaresee]

Originally posted by guitarose
So..any chance of that?
Nope. Thanks for the reminder. I've been a bit distracted these days. Hopefully I'll get to show the reason in 48 hours or so. :)

[guitarose]

Originally posted by iaresee
Nope. Thanks for the reminder. I've been a bit distracted these days. Hopefully I'll get to show the reason in 48 hours or so. :)

cool..i look forwards to whatever it is..after said 48 hours, could i get some drum insight?

[iaresee]

Originally posted by guitarose
cool..i look forwards to whatever it is..after said 48 hours, could i get some drum insight?
No sign of the reason for my distraction yet much to my wife's chagrin. She's a trooper though. She can handle a couple of more days. :)

Alright, I gave a good listen to the track. Sounds like they mic'ed only the bottom of the snare, with the snares a little looser. Maybe a bigger, deeper shell to it, 5" or so. And it's hit with a really light touch. If you're drummer is a pounder try having him hold his sticks with his palms facing up. And the verb on the kit is dialed in a little heavier on the snare. The whole kit is being played with a really light touch though.

[guitarose]

Originally posted by iaresee
No sign of the reason for my distraction yet much to my wife's chagrin. She's a trooper though. She can handle a couple of more days. :)

Alright, I gave a good listen to the track. Sounds like they mic'ed only the bottom of the snare, with the snares a little looser. Maybe a bigger, deeper shell to it, 5" or so. And it's hit with a really light touch. If you're drummer is a pounder try having him hold his sticks with his palms facing up. And the verb on the kit is dialed in a little heavier on the snare. The whole kit is being played with a really light touch though.

I don't get what you're on about with the distraction thing, but wow!..that was incredible..just gotta try reproduce that!

Would one use an sm57 or 58 for a snare?

would similar techniques have been used throughout that album?

[iaresee]

Originally posted by guitarose
Would one use an sm57 or 58 for a snare?
A 57 if you've got it is my preferred mic for a snare. If you want to play around a bit I've also used with good (and different) results: an AKG C418 (it gave me a very, tight, crack sound), an AKG C451 and a customized Apex 410 and 415 (basically I buy them and replace all the caps and resistors with better quality parts).

The 57 was by far and away the darkest sounding of all those mics.

would similar techniques have been used throughout that album?
Yes: in that the same drummer was playing throughout the entire album. ;) I really think he had that sound from his kit before they stuck the mics on it.

[guitarose]

Originally posted by iaresee
A 57 if you've got it is my preferred mic for a snare. If you want to play around a bit I've also used with good (and different) results: an AKG C418 (it gave me a very, tight, crack sound), an AKG C451 and a customized Apex 410 and 415 (basically I buy them and replace all the caps and resistors with better quality parts).

The 57 was by far and away the darkest sounding of all those mics.


Yes: in that the same drummer was playing throughout the entire album. ;) I really think he had that sound from his kit before they stuck the mics on it.

Well I was thinking of picking up an SM58 for vocals..would it work as well as the 57? I like the idea of dark sounds...my other mic is a studio projects B1 condenser.

I don't plan on close miking, due to both cost of mic's, and i quite like old school drum sounds..so the above mic's plus another condensor as an overhead (my mate's samson) and I've come across a technique with a 58 working with the overheads to pickup the bass.

I may stick another mic at a distance to get a room sound.

[iaresee]

Originally posted by guitarose
Well I was thinking of picking up an SM58 for vocals..would it work as well as the 57? I like the idea of dark sounds...my other mic is a studio projects B1 condenser.
The 57 is my work horse. I don't hold a lot of love for 58s. I even prefer 57s on vocals to 58s. YMMV of course.

I don't plan on close miking, due to both cost of mic's, and i quite like old school drum sounds..so the above mic's plus another condensor as an overhead (my mate's samson) and I've come across a technique with a 58 working with the overheads to pickup the bass.
That's okay. Aim the 57 up to the sky so it captures the bottom side of the snare and the hi hat at the same time. Stick a mic on the kick. And then two overheads and that's not a bad setup.

I may stick another mic at a distance to get a room sound.
Does your room sound that good? If it doesn't I wouldn't waste the channel. Close mic the snare and hi-hat separately instead and add ambiance after the capture with a good verb plugin.

[guitarose]

Originally posted by iaresee
The 57 is my work horse. I don't hold a lot of love for 58s. I even prefer 57s on vocals to 58s. YMMV of course.


That's okay. Aim the 57 up to the sky so it captures the bottom side of the snare and the hi hat at the same time. Stick a mic on the kick. And then two overheads and that's not a bad setup.


Does your room sound that good? If it doesn't I wouldn't waste the channel. Close mic the snare and hi-hat separately instead and add ambiance after the capture with a good verb plugin.

What's YMMV?...I thought they were virtually the same mic in a different casing? Why do you prefer the 57?

We may have access to this room which actually sounds great! Otherwise, point taken.

[iaresee]

Originally posted by guitarose
What's YMMV?
YMMV = You miles may vary

...I thought they were virtually the same mic in a different casing? Why do you prefer the 57?
They are not. I believe they share the same condenser capsule but that's it. The electronics and the filters are different. Here is a 58s frequency response curve (http://www.shure.com/stellent/groups/public/@gms_gmi_web_us/documents/web_resource/site_img_us_rc_sm58_large.gif). And here is a 57s (http://www.shure.com/stellent/groups/public/@gms_gmi_web_us/documents/web_resource/site_img_us_rc_sm57_large.gif). Not the same curve. The 58 has a dip in the "air" frequency range and drops off sooner than the 57. I superimposed the two plots here (http://picasaweb.google.com/sniff.scratch/ShureSM57SM58Compared/photo#5124971752258818546) and it differences are more apparent. The 57 is the red line.

It's also a little historical and a bit of a habit on my part. I've recorded too many tracks I've liked with 57s and too many tracks I've hated with 58s to waver on my beliefs now. :)

[guitarose]

Originally posted by iaresee
YMMV = You miles may vary


They are not. I believe they share the same condenser capsule but that's it. The electronics and the filters are different. Here is a 58s frequency response curve (http://www.shure.com/stellent/groups/public/@gms_gmi_web_us/documents/web_resource/site_img_us_rc_sm58_large.gif). And here is a 57s (http://www.shure.com/stellent/groups/public/@gms_gmi_web_us/documents/web_resource/site_img_us_rc_sm57_large.gif). Not the same curve. The 58 has a dip in the "air" frequency range and drops off sooner than the 57. I superimposed the two plots here (http://picasaweb.google.com/sniff.scratch/ShureSM57SM58Compared/photo#5124971752258818546) and it differences are more apparent. The 57 is the red line.

It's also a little historical and a bit of a habit on my part. I've recorded too many tracks I've liked with 57s and too many tracks I've hated with 58s to waver on my beliefs now. :)

I thought the capsule IS the electronics?! :confused: :o

Beyond the fact that it's famous for vocals, I was keen on the 58 because bono uses one, and his vocals are incredible sounding (yes i know there's other studio stuff, and he has a great voice anyway, but i guess the 58 has a great rep for a reason).

What do you mean by the "air" freq?

The superimposed link won't work "NOT FOUND... ERROR 404"

[iaresee]

Originally posted by guitarose
I thought the capsule IS the electronics?! :confused: :o
No, that's the part that turns air pressure into an electrical current. It passes through a simple solid state filter/amplifier stage that's unique to the mic before it's put on the line to your preamp.

Beyond the fact that it's famous for vocals, I was keen on the 58 because bono uses one, and his vocals are incredible sounding (yes i know there's other studio stuff, and he has a great voice anyway, but i guess the 58 has a great rep for a reason).
Yea, take a look at those curves. The 58 has more pronounced response curve in the human vocal range than the 57.

What do you mean by the "air" freq?
10kHz and above. It's sort of nearing the upper limits of hearing so we don't perceive specific frequencies in this high range, it's more a sense. If something sounds flat, try boosting in the 10kHz range and you'll find more life, more breath in the sound. There's a great book called The Mixing Engineer's Handbook (http://books.google.com/books?id=cb00zXmqOpQC&dq=mixing+engineer%27s+handbook&psp=1) that really does a nice job of explaining the psychological aspect of sound frequencies.

The superimposed link won't work "NOT FOUND... ERROR 404"
Try this: http://picasaweb.google.com/sniff.scratch/ShureSM57SM58Compared/photo#5124971752258818546

[guitarose]

Originally posted by iaresee
No, that's the part that turns air pressure into an electrical current. It passes through a simple solid state filter/amplifier stage that's unique to the mic before it's put on the line to your preamp.

Thanks for that

Originally posted by iaresee

Yea, take a look at those curves. The 58 has more pronounced response curve in the human vocal range than the 57.

So the preference is a matter of opinion..from a technical perspective does that mean that the 58 gives more body, whilst the 57 is more transparant?

Originally posted by iaresee

10kHz and above. It's sort of nearing the upper limits of hearing so we don't perceive specific frequencies in this high range, it's more a sense. If something sounds flat, try boosting in the 10kHz range and you'll find more life, more breath in the sound. There's a great book called The Mixing Engineer's Handbook (http://books.google.com/books?id=cb00zXmqOpQC&dq=mixing+engineer%27s+handbook&psp=1) that really does a nice job of explaining the psychological aspect of sound frequencies.


You seem to know your books..is this the best mixing book on the market? I happy to pick up books, but don't want loads..does it cover the whole topic of mixing (the link was bust...as was the following...)


Originally posted by iaresee

Try this: http://picasaweb.google.com/sniff.scratch/ShureSM57SM58Compared/photo#5124971752258818546

[guitarose]

The link works now...must have been my computer...thanks for that..

based on that plus some reading i did later last night, i just picked up an sm 57 whilst buying a bass (squire vintage modified jazz)..

but I'm still interested in my previous questions, since i can always take this mic back.

thanks for the help so far.

[guitarose]

Please sir...more sir...:o

Originally posted by guitarose
but I'm still interested in my previous questions...

So the preference is a matter of opinion..from a technical perspective does that mean that the 58 gives more body, whilst the 57 is more transparant?

is this the best mixing book on the market? I happy to pick up books, but don't want loads..does it cover the whole topic of mixing (such as drum and vocal recording and mixing?)

And general bump to those who have recorded drums!