1st proper foray into recording...acoustic lacks treble..

[guitarose]

So...I'm currently recording some friends, an excellent acoustic guitarist, and an amazing female singer.

For some reason, I have to EQ the treble in after recording on the acoustic (and on the uppermids/low treble on the vocals now that i think about it). The EQ is like lifting a blanket...but where's that blanket coming from?!

I'm using a Studio Projects B1 on the acoustic, about 6inches from the guitar, near where the body meets the neck, pointing very slightly to the neck.

[iaresee]

If it's happening on the guitar and the vox the culprit sounds like your mic or your channel strip on the mixer. Try another mic, if it's still dark it's the channel strip, if not it's the mic. What's your channel strip like?

Out of habit I generally push up the 10k-12k range on acoustics to give them more sparkle. That's just how I like 'em recorded though. That same range on vocals can put a touch of breath in them if you're looking for that real intimate, smoky french cafe type sound.

You asked me for a list of books didn't you? I forgot to respond to that post. But here's a list of some of the books I've found helpful over the years:

Owinski's The Mixing Engineer's Handbook (http://www.amazon.ca/Mixing-Engineers-Handbook-Bobby-Owsinski/dp/1598632515/ref=sr_1_1/702-4229280-9748869?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193971687&sr=8-1)
Owinski's The Recording Engineer's Handbook (http://www.amazon.ca/Recording-Engineers-Handbook-Bobby-Owsinski/dp/1932929002/ref=sr_1_3/702-4229280-9748869?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193971723&sr=1-3)
Katz's Mastering Audio (http://www.amazon.ca/Mastering-Audio-science-Bob-Katz/dp/0240808371/ref=sr_1_4/702-4229280-9748869?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193971852&sr=1-4)
Guerin's Cubase SX/SL Power! (http://www.amazon.ca/Cubase-SX-SL-3-Power/dp/1592005373/ref=sr_1_5/702-4229280-9748869?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193971891&sr=1-5)

I've read my way through 20 or so books on recording and mixing engineering over the years and those 4 are on my desk next to me at all times. Great references. The Owinski books are used as course books at Trebas (http://www.trebas.com/) in Toronto.

I've been toying with the idea of going back to school. Change my career to audio engineering. Does anyone have any experience with Berklee Online's (http://www.berkleemusic.com/) courses? The school gets high marks of course, but what about their online school? Good? Bad? Meh? I'm taking a few weeks off work starting next week and I thought I'd skulk around a few local Ottawa studios, see if I can't weasel my way into hanging around for a bit just absorbing some information, make some contacts.

[guitarose]

Originally posted by iaresee
If it's happening on the guitar and the vox the culprit sounds like your mic or your channel strip on the mixer. Try another mic, if it's still dark it's the channel strip, if not it's the mic. What's your channel strip like?

Out of habit I generally push up the 10k-12k range on acoustics to give them more sparkle. That's just how I like 'em recorded though. That same range on vocals can put a touch of breath in them if you're looking for that real intimate, smoky french cafe type sound.

Well i can't be sure with vox, because this girl has quite a deep jazzy voice anyway. Thinking about it, the guitarist once recording vox for a guide track, and though he wasn't bothered with a good performance, the tone was pretty good, so i'm guessing the equipment's ok. the vox is probably here voice...FWIW, i'm using a focusrite saffire le - this lack of treble thing aside, the sound's great; no hiss at all, etc.

A mate's recorded this same guitarist, with a samson mic, of lower quality than my own, through an m-audio interface (similar quality i think), and gotten a nice full even sound..i'll ask if he used much eq..but could it be mic placement?

Thanks for the books..I'll probably pick them up, though i just read a review on the mixing one which said it's not too great on detail.....shame about the rubbish covers too - i've got to stop judging books by those...!

I actually thought of doing a diploma in audio engineering straight after my degree, but research and talking to someone told me that i may not enjoy it as a career; lots of music that i won't enjoy dealing with etc, for not very much money, unless you make a name for yourself - which is hard to do when working on projects you don't enjoy...that's my take on it!...good luck with what you decide - i thought i'd give my 2cents/1pence

And thanks...I was hoping you'd answer :)


EDIT:...Wow!...the bob katz book is so new it's not yet published!

I'm currently using cubase LE...not much point in the last book i think!...I don't think i'll leave LE unless i need to - it does everything i want it to (i think!)

[Moo]

The mic's not going to be perfect, but there are a lot of places to put a mic for an acoustic guitar.

You are going to catch a lot of bass that close, which you probably aren't going to hear sitting a few feet away from the performer. Experiment with the position.

As a guitarist, my personal favorite is the over-the-shoulder position. Sit the mic right next to the person's head, and you get a similar sound to when you're playing the guitar. Try everywhere you can think of.

A lot of the more brilliant highs can be captured better with a small diaphragm condenser, but throwing money at the problem isn't necessarily going to help.

The bob katz book is fairly old. I don't put much weight by it but I don't much like books about production. Too much What and Why, not enough How

[iaresee]

Originally posted by guitarose
but could it be mic placement?
Have him play. Put on some cans and move the mic around until you hear something you like in the cans. That's usually how I set up for recording acoustics.

Thanks for the books..I'll probably pick them up, though i just read a review on the mixing one which said it's not too great on detail
That's the case with most of the books on the topic I've read. Those three just said things I find useful time and again. In particular if I'm stuck searching for a sound they have tips here and there that can pull my thoughts out of a rut. I think most of what it boils down to is experience, experience, experience and a good ear. Some things you just can't communicate in a book.

EDIT:...Wow!...the bob katz book is so new it's not yet published!
That's the 2nd edition. The first edition was published in 2002. Google lets you read it online (http://books.google.ca/books?id=EBCmpwGCROMC&dq=bob+katz+mastering+audio).

[Charlie_M]

I went through a lot of experimentation recently and finally now have a recorded acoustic sound I like. I found that I had to apply an LF cut to keep it from sounding boomy. THis is normally true of acoustic guitar I'm told.

Experiment with leaving the eq flat in the treble range but cut the crap out of the lows (like 12 dB /octave slope and experiment with the filter's 3 dB frequency until it starts to sound clear and crisp).

I am a beginner to recording myself. WHat they tell me is that in general you want to be primarily thinking about eq as a subtractive tool, not additivie (boost) primarily.

And yes it can totally be placement too. Sounds like you are in a good enough spot though (around neck /body joint is where most people go- - at least as a starting point to tweak on). Let us know how the LF cut works out, or if you're doing that already.

Good luck,

Charlie

[guitarose]

Originally posted by Moo
You are going to catch a lot of bass that close, which you probably aren't going to hear sitting a few feet away from the performer. Experiment with the position.

As a guitarist, my personal favorite is the over-the-shoulder position. Sit the mic right next to the person's head, and you get a similar sound to when you're playing the guitar. Try everywhere you can think of.

A lot of the more brilliant highs can be captured better with a small diaphragm condenser, but throwing money at the problem isn't necessarily going to help.

I'll try more distance. I've heard of that mic technique before, will give it a shot.

Originally posted by Moo
The bob katz book is fairly old. I don't put much weight by it but I don't much like books about production. Too much What and Why, not enough How

well the Katz book is about mastering - i'm not at that stage yet, so i'm not too fussed about it! I guess the point of books is to explain more general stuff, because mixing is part of making music - there is no universal how.

[guitarose]

Originally posted by iaresee
Have him play. Put on some cans and move the mic around until you hear something you like in the cans. That's usually how I set up for recording acoustics.

I kinda did that, but assumed it would sound good, so didnt pay enough close attention to the sound quality :o

Originally posted by iaresee
That's the case with most of the books on the topic I've read. Those three just said things I find useful time and again. In particular if I'm stuck searching for a sound they have tips here and there that can pull my thoughts out of a rut. I think most of what it boils down to is experience, experience, experience and a good ear. Some things you just can't communicate in a book.

Makes sense...I find that all the online reading i've done so far, has allowed me to feel that i know what im doing, and considering i'm pretty early beginner with all this, i think i'm pretty good at it...but i can straight away see my many deficiencies which are essentially due to a lack of experience.

Originally posted by iaresee
That's the 2nd edition. The first edition was published in 2002. Google lets you read it online (http://books.google.ca/books?id=EBCmpwGCROMC&dq=bob+katz+mastering+audio).

I know..couldn't help but comment on it..sorry!...is the whole book available on that link?

[guitarose]

Originally posted by Charlie_M
I went through a lot of experimentation recently and finally now have a recorded acoustic sound I like. I found that I had to apply an LF cut to keep it from sounding boomy. THis is normally true of acoustic guitar I'm told.

Experiment with leaving the eq flat in the treble range but cut the crap out of the lows (like 12 dB /octave slope and experiment with the filter's 3 dB frequency until it starts to sound clear and crisp).

I am a beginner to recording myself. WHat they tell me is that in general you want to be primarily thinking about eq as a subtractive tool, not additivie (boost) primarily.

I did this anyway due to the boomyness of a heavily strummed acoustic, and did indeed clear out the mud.

But the top end is still lacking. The EQ-subtraction is, i think, to minimise noise. My rig's pretty quiet; so long as i don't go way to extreme and literally have the whole EQ line boosted, i don't get much noise at all, because only noise that's there gets boosted - i hardly have any in mine (one prob i'm not stuck with).


Originally posted by Charlie_M

And yes it can totally be placement too. Sounds like you are in a good enough spot though (around neck /body joint is where most people go- - at least as a starting point to tweak on). Let us know how the LF cut works out, or if you're doing that already.

Good luck,

Charlie

So the LF cut hasn't worked; im still lacking treble, and needing to boost to lift that blanket...maybe that's normal for a balanced crisp sound?!:confused:


And to everyonge so far...thanks very much for the help!

[Charlie_M]

Could be a million things... the space, the preamp, etc... if you've done the LF cut and have experimented with placement to the point where you feel that's pretty optimal and you think it still needs an HF shelf, by all means boost away if that makes it sound better to your ears.

I want to also recommend that once you get the recording sounding the way you like it, post it in the reviews section of recordingreview.com. This is where I've gotten my biggest learning experiences in terms of recording. There are a few really experienced guys over there who are very generous with advice and tips. Short of going to a recording school, or hiring a recording expert as a tutor, I think there is no faster way to learn than giving it your best and posting results to get feedback and tips.

Good luck.

Charlie

[guitarose]

Originally posted by Charlie_M
Could be a million things... the space, the preamp, etc... if you've done the LF cut and have experimented with placement to the point where you feel that's pretty optimal and you think it still needs an HF shelf, by all means boost away if that makes it sound better to your ears.

I want to also recommend that once you get the recording sounding the way you like it, post it in the reviews section of recordingreview.com. This is where I've gotten my biggest learning experiences in terms of recording. There are a few really experienced guys over there who are very generous with advice and tips. Short of going to a recording school, or hiring a recording expert as a tutor, I think there is no faster way to learn than giving it your best and posting results to get feedback and tips.

Good luck.

Charlie

Cool..thanks..I think of doing that...i think i'll mess more with mic placement first.

[iaresee]

Originally posted by guitarose
Makes sense...I find that all the online reading i've done so far, has allowed me to feel that i know what im doing, and considering i'm pretty early beginner with all this, i think i'm pretty good at it...but i can straight away see my many deficiencies which are essentially due to a lack of experience.
I keep wavering on shelling out the cash for this one: http://www.mixingwithyourmind.com/

Anyone read it? Got an opinion on it?

[guitarose]

Originally posted by iaresee
I keep wavering on shelling out the cash for this one: http://www.mixingwithyourmind.com/

Anyone read it? Got an opinion on it?

The subheadings look like it covers lots of info..I'm actually thinking it maybe more worth it than the Owinski books; it seems to cover both recording and mixing...$100aus...that's around £30 i think...i'm considering it too now...so bump to opinions on that book!

[Charlie_M]

I began this odyssey into home recording only about 8 months ago, so I am still beginner for sure. Last week I picked up this book here:

http://www.amazon.com/Mixing-Engineers-Handbook-Second/dp/1598632515/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196230941&sr=8-1

This is the book that I wish I had on day 1. It deals mostly with mixing, not tracking. Wanted to mention it even though this thread is mainly about tracking, you'll be mixing those tracks sooner or later anyway. Great book in my opinion.

Charlie

[iaresee]

Originally posted by Charlie_M
Last week I picked up this book here:

http://www.amazon.com/Mixing-Engineers-Handbook-Second/dp/1598632515/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196230941&sr=8-1

This is the book that I wish I had on day 1.
Dude, see my first response to the original post. I so beat you to that recommendation. :)

[guitarose]

Originally posted by iaresee
Dude, see my first response to the original post. I so beat you to that recommendation. :)

:) ..haha!

And with a second recommendation from someone who's also a beginner at this...i think i may get this...

i actually placed an order for it on amazon, but for some reason it would't go through...take 2 i guess!

Thanks guys

And on topic...it's all about mic placement for what i was asking about - well at least in a very big way!