Mixing (down), Mastering and File Size

[guitarose]

So...

sorry for all my recoding questions recently, but there's not enough info on it here!...so a couple of questions.

1)for a not so serious project, is it possible to use the master mixer controls in lieu of a mastering program?

2)when mixing down from cubase, do you select stereo interleaved for all the effects use to shine through?

3)also, when mixing down, is that when to apply dither (as described in this old thread... (http://guitargeek.com/chat/showthread.php?s=&postid=926772#post926772) )), or is that only on mastering tools? (i couldn't find it anywhere on Cubase....PS...for this wuestion, feel free to bump the linked thread)

4)I recorded in 24/96...I've since read that the best quality:size ration is 24/44.1...but for now the mixed down files are HUGE! How can I resolve this without killing the quality of my recordings?

Thanks in advance guys :)

[wren]

I'll tackle what I can here.
Originally posted by guitarose
2)when mixing down from cubase, do you select stereo interleaved for all the effects use to shine through?You want "stereo interleaved" because your other options are (I believe) "mono" and "stereo split"; "mono" obviously gives you a mono out, and "stereo split" gives you 2 different files, one that is the left track, one that is the right.

Originally posted by guitarose
3)also, when mixing down, is that when to apply dither (as described in this old thread... (http://guitargeek.com/chat/showthread.php?s=&postid=926772#post926772) )), or is that only on mastering tools? (i couldn't find it anywhere on Cubase....PS...for this wuestion, feel free to bump the linked thread)I personally wait until mastering is complete before I reduce bitrate etc.; it's typically the very last step in my process before I burn the first CD.

Originally posted by guitarose
4)I recorded in 24/96...I've since read that the best quality:size ration is 24/44.1...but for now the mixed down files are HUGE! How can I resolve this without killing the quality of my recordings?I personally use 24/48, and that works great for me. Really, the 24 bit part is the most important, and you're going to have to bring it down to 16/44.1 anyway to get it onto a CD. 24/96 can be overkill, especially when your computer is kinda slow, and it does take up a ****-ton of space. 24/48 sounds more noticably better from 24/44.1 than 24/96 sounds to 24/48 to my ears, and barely takes up more space than a wave file that you'd rip from a CD.

[iaresee]

Originally posted by guitarose
1)for a not so serious project, is it possible to use the master mixer controls in lieu of a mastering program?
Master in what ever interface you have. I'll sometimes work in Cubase, sometimes in Wavelab. Depends on what plugins I want to apply to the tracks (my Wavelab is really old so some newer Waves plugins don't work in it). I believe there's a Cubase project template for mastering. There's really no special voodoo in something like Wavelab. It's simpler interface might make you work faster. I have a minimalists mind when it comes to mastering.


2)when mixing down from cubase, do you select stereo interleaved for all the effects use to shine through?
I don't think I've ever used anything but interleaved. You can still apply different treatments to the L and R channel in an interleaved track.

3)also, when mixing down, is that when to apply dither (as described in this old thread... (http://guitargeek.com/chat/showthread.php?s=&postid=926772#post926772) )), or is that only on mastering tools? (i couldn't find it anywhere on Cubase....PS...for this wuestion, feel free to bump the linked thread)
I too usually dither last right before I burn a reference CD to test on different systems. Until then I work in as high a bitrate and sample rate as I can tolerate (which is usually 24/48 on my aging system).

[redross]

This (http://www.tweakheadz.com) site has a bunch of great recording info for both the beginner and advanced recorder.

[Moo]

Originally posted by guitarose
So...

sorry for all my recoding questions recently, but there's not enough info on it here!...so a couple of questions.

1)for a not so serious project, is it possible to use the master mixer controls in lieu of a mastering program?

2)when mixing down from cubase, do you select stereo interleaved for all the effects use to shine through?

3)also, when mixing down, is that when to apply dither (as described in this old thread... (http://guitargeek.com/chat/showthread.php?s=&postid=926772#post926772) )), or is that only on mastering tools? (i couldn't find it anywhere on Cubase....PS...for this wuestion, feel free to bump the linked thread)

4)I recorded in 24/96...I've since read that the best quality:size ration is 24/44.1...but for now the mixed down files are HUGE! How can I resolve this without killing the quality of my recordings?

Thanks in advance guys :)

Your mixes shouldn't sound awful in 16/44.1. Wait until you hear them in 128kbps mp3. I think I remember reading most mastering engineers work with 24 bit/44.1 WAV files. Since you're doing it yourself, the choice is yours; I doubt there's any special reason for this being standard.

Generally if you're mastering you're working with a stereo interleaved wav file. It's more practical than just running effects on the output bus, because you're going to be overloading your processor with plugins, including the ones you used to mix. It's more frugal to just work on the WAV if you're going to spend any significant amount of time on it.

You know honestly I don't know why Cubase gives options other than Stereo Interleaved and Mono. It's probably an artifact from earlier days if anything.

Oh and as for the file size, if you think that's huge, take a look at the directory housing your project.

[guitarose]

Originally posted by wren
I'll tackle what I can here.
You want "stereo interleaved" because your other options are (I believe) "mono" and "stereo split"; "mono" obviously gives you a mono out, and "stereo split" gives you 2 different files, one that is the left track, one that is the right. excellent. that's what I used, but I didn't know the difference. thank you.

Originally posted by wren

I personally wait until mastering is complete before I reduce bitrate etc.; it's typically the very last step in my process before I burn the first CD.

But how do you actually reduce the bitrate? Like the interleaved file that opens on itunes is now 35MB or so..how do I get that down without screwing up the quality?

Originally posted by wren
I personally use 24/48, and that works great for me. Really, the 24 bit part is the most important, and you're going to have to bring it down to 16/44.1 anyway to get it onto a CD. 24/96 can be overkill, especially when your computer is kinda slow, and it does take up a ****-ton of space. 24/48 sounds more noticably better from 24/44.1 than 24/96 sounds to 24/48 to my ears, and barely takes up more space than a wave file that you'd rip from a CD. I'm not too fussed on space (computer engineer mate always has spare drives lying around!), but for the sake of emailing/ripping the recordings, I need to get to a more standard song size!...So how do I do that?

[guitarose]

Originally posted by iaresee
Master in what ever interface you have. I'll sometimes work in Cubase, sometimes in Wavelab. Depends on what plugins I want to apply to the tracks (my Wavelab is really old so some newer Waves plugins don't work in it). I believe there's a Cubase project template for mastering. There's really no special voodoo in something like Wavelab. It's simpler interface might make you work faster. I have a minimalists mind when it comes to mastering.

I'll have to look at a Cubase mastering template...do you basically import the mixed down file and master it that way (before I was talking about using the master channel on the main mix).

And do mastering programs (or cubase if i can do it there) let you have all the tracks of an album together, one after another, so you can balance the volume between songs..and maybe even the EQ too, to get a more coherent sound.


Originally posted by iaresee
I too usually dither last right before I burn a reference CD to test on different systems. Until then I work in as high a bitrate and sample rate as I can tolerate (which is usually 24/48 on my aging system).

I never actually understood how you actually dither. and do you apply it when mixing down to 16/44.1 (which seems to still be a huge audio file)?

[guitarose]

Originally posted by Moo
Oh and as for the file size, if you think that's huge, take a look at the directory housing your project.

Haha..I know that's huge...it's meant to be!...but I want the mixed down track to be of comparable size to a standard track from a CD/itunes, etc...that's my main issue at the moment (and how making the file size smaller fits in with mastering, etc).


Thanks very much for the responses guys...please keep em coming...Just a few things to pick up, and I thinik I have the basics covered (it's amazing how quickly you can learn the basics of recording!:))

[iaresee]

Originally posted by guitarose
I'll have to look at a Cubase mastering template...do you basically import the mixed down file and master it that way (before I was talking about using the master channel on the main mix).
Yea, it's a two-track stereo layout. You just put down the tracks one after the other and do your mastering across all the tracks you intend to burn on the same disc. It's more CPU-efficient than working on your original project. I can't recall now if it lets you burn a red book CD with track marks. I usually split it up and burn from Wavelab. Cubase and my DVD-RW drive don't get along well.

And do mastering programs (or cubase if i can do it there) let you have all the tracks of an album together, one after another, so you can balance the volume between songs..and maybe even the EQ too, to get a more coherent sound.
Yup. In Cubase you lay the tracks out on the time line one after the other. In Wavelab it has a multi-track setting called a compilation where you put each track in order and cross fade them and stuff and then all the mastering can be applied to the compilation or to each individual track.

[guitarose]

Originally posted by iaresee
Yea, it's a two-track stereo layout. You just put down the tracks one after the other and do your mastering across all the tracks you intend to burn on the same disc. It's more CPU-efficient than working on your original project. I can't recall now if it lets you burn a red book CD with track marks. I usually split it up and burn from Wavelab. Cubase and my DVD-RW drive don't get along well.

I'll have to check my LE version has it..Do I import the file from the original Cubase project, or from the mixed down stereo interleaved file (that appears with an itunes icon)?..what's a red book CD? And wouldn't you burn it once it's onto something like itunes/media player, etc? And where in this process does the file size become more managable, and where does the dither go?

Originally posted by iaresee
Yup. In Cubase you lay the tracks out on the time line one after the other. In Wavelab it has a multi-track setting called a compilation where you put each track in order and cross fade them and stuff and then all the mastering can be applied to the compilation or to each individual track. So in Cubase I can't make edits to individual tracks? It all has to be done on the initial mix?

[Moo]

I think you're confusing the two definitions of the word track. iaresee in that last post means tracks on a CD, like songs. Laying out all the songs on a CD in a row so the album can have a general sound to it.

You're thinking individually recorded tracks like guitar and bass etc.

[guitarose]

Originally posted by Moo
I think you're confusing the two definitions of the word track. iaresee in that last post means tracks on a CD, like songs. Laying out all the songs on a CD in a row so the album can have a general sound to it.

You're thinking individually recorded tracks like guitar and bass etc.

No no..not at all, though I can see how i didn't make it very clear. I meant individual tracks in the sense of a song, or final CD. I know mastering doesn't touch instrument tracks separately...

But from my understanding of what he said, on Cubase you lay each track in a row, which means one change affects every track (song)..But on wavelab, it's each track (song) separately right?

And bump on the file size/dithering question...it looks like the guys who have posted here understand it, so any help would be great. thanks.

[iaresee]

Originally posted by guitarose
I'll have to check my LE version has it
Technically every Cubase version can do this. Start a new project. Add a stereo audio track. Import your exported, fully mixed, interleaved audio files from your mixing session into this new project, one after the other, on the single stereo audio track. Master that stereo audio track.

Turn off the click track because you probably don't care about beat alignment when mastering.

I also change the ruler/grid from bars:beats to hh:mm:ss because I'm more interested in physical time when mastering than I am in bars and beats.

Do I import the file from the original Cubase project, or from the mixed down stereo interleaved file (that appears with an itunes icon)?
Import the mixed down, stereo interleaved WAV files. Note: they appear with the iTunes icon because you've told your PC that iTunes is the default player for .WAV files.

what's a red book CD?
It's an audio CD that adheres to a particular standard. See this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Book_(audio_CD_standard)).

And wouldn't you burn it once it's onto something like itunes/media player, etc?
I wouldn't, but you can.

And where in this process does the file size become more managable, and where does the dither go?
You can dither down the sample rate and size after you master if you like. That's when I do it. In fact, I master, dither and listen and then possibly tweak my master settings so the final dithered audio clips sound right. You want to dither down to audio CD sample and bit rates: 16 bit PCM sampled at 44.1 kHz. At those settings you'll have audio files that are approximately 10 MB/minute in size.

So in Cubase I can't make edits to individual tracks? It all has to be done on the initial mix?
I'm not sure what you're asking for here. Cubase works like Cubase, it's just how you set up your project. In mixing mode you've got one track per instrument. In mastering mode you've got a single stereo track that has each song laid out on it, one after the other. You can apply changes to the entire track (which means all songs see the changes), or you can work with each song individual and apply changes to just that clip. Up to you. You could just as easily create, in your Cubase mastering project, a new stereo audio track for each song you want to master in the compilation. Cubase lets you decide how you want to work. Wavelab has it's own pseudo-tracked kind of way of doing this that's a hack on a true multi-tracking DAW interface. Some like it, some don't.

[guitarose]

Originally posted by iaresee
Technically every Cubase version can do this. Start a new project. Add a stereo audio track. Import your exported, fully mixed, interleaved audio files from your mixing session into this new project, one after the other, on the single stereo audio track. Master that stereo audio track.

Import the mixed down, stereo interleaved WAV files. Note: they appear with the iTunes icon because you've told your PC that iTunes is the default player for .WAV files.

Excellent. Thanks man.

Originally posted by iaresee
It's an audio CD that adheres to a particular standard. See this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Book_(audio_CD_standard)).

It lists these specifications:
1. Maximum playing time is 78 minutes (including pauses)
2. Minimum duration for a track is 4 seconds
3. Maximum number of tracks is 99
4. Maximum number of index points (subdivisions of a track) is 99 with no minimum time limit
5. International Standard Recording Code (ISRC) should be recorded on CD-Rs to appear on the replicated discs

I get them all except the latter...I tried the wiki link, but don't get it :o

Originally posted by iaresee
I wouldn't, but you can.

Why wouldn't you? You're probably right in not, since I'm a noob at this stuff, but I'm trying to make sense of it all.

Originally posted by iaresee
You can dither down the sample rate and size after you master if you like. That's when I do it. In fact, I master, dither and listen and then possibly tweak my master settings so the final dithered audio clips sound right. You want to dither down to audio CD sample and bit rates: 16 bit PCM sampled at 44.1 kHz. At those settings you'll have audio files that are approximately 10 MB/minute in size.

Do you simply find the option to dither when you export? And are there any settings to be adjusted, or is it an automated process?

Why is it that when you put CD tracks onto a PC they're only around 4 MB...so about 1MB/Minute, compared to 10MB/Minute? That's what made me think I needed to do something to compress (in a file size, not audio sense) my mixdowns.

Originally posted by iaresee
I'm not sure what you're asking for here. Cubase works like Cubase, it's just how you set up your project. In mixing mode you've got one track per instrument. In mastering mode you've got a single stereo track that has each song laid out on it, one after the other. You can apply changes to the entire track (which means all songs see the changes), or you can work with each song individual and apply changes to just that clip. Up to you. You could just as easily create, in your Cubase mastering project, a new stereo audio track for each song you want to master in the compilation. Cubase lets you decide how you want to work. Wavelab has it's own pseudo-tracked kind of way of doing this that's a hack on a true multi-tracking DAW interface. Some like it, some don't.

I think you just taught me something important, and didn't get me due to my ignorance...I didn't know you could apply different effects to the same track by spliting it up...do you simply cut it up into different sections without needing to shift each of those sections onto a new track?


And thanks for being very helpful as always. Much appreciated.

[wren]

Originally posted by guitarose
Why wouldn't you? You're probably right in not, since I'm a noob at this stuff, but I'm trying to make sense of it all.I wouldn't because itunes and windows media player (but especially itunes) will do things to your audio files without telling you when they get imported into the library. Itunes does this little "leveling" thing (supposedly you can turn it off, but you actually can't in my experience) that supposedly equalizes the volume of all the tracks, and it always makes them louder. This is what you do during mastering, though; after you're done mastering, you don't want what you've done to be changed in any way. Itunes will change things, though, and I distrust windows media player enough to not want to use it.

Last spring, I did the sound for a performance of Dracula (I work in a theater). All the narration was prerecorded, and I got it all down, all sounding great, all volumes equal. Then I burned it with itunes, and one track (just one) was so stupidly loud compared to the rest. I thought I'd screwed up, so I went back and lowered the gain on that track by about 5 db. Still too loud. I lowered it by about 7 additional. Still too loud. Finally, I figured out that itunes was doing something that was making it louder once I imported it into itunes' library. I'd had it at the right volume to begin with, and itunes was screwing it up.

[iaresee]

Originally posted by guitarose
5. International Standard Recording Code (ISRC) should be recorded on CD-Rs to appear on the replicated discs

I get them all except the latter...I tried the wiki link, but don't get it :o
You can just fake the organisation and stuff in your ISRC code. There might be a code for a catch-all organisation, I can't remember now.

Why wouldn't you? You're probably right in not, since I'm a noob at this stuff, but I'm trying to make sense of it all.
wren said it already: because iTunes and WiMP do things to your tracks and embed information in the CD that you don't want there. Like CD Text so the song titles show up on the display in your Chrysler. That stuff is not standard. You don't want that junk in the trunk on a master CD that's destined for the duplicator or anything like that.

Do you simply find the option to dither when you export? And are there any settings to be adjusted, or is it an automated process?
Yes, when you do File -> Export -> Audio Mixdown... you get to choose the resolution and the bit rate. At least I see these choices in Cubase SX 3.

Why is it that when you put CD tracks onto a PC they're only around 4 MB...so about 1MB/Minute, compared to 10MB/Minute? That's what made me think I needed to do something to compress (in a file size, not audio sense) my mixdowns.
Because you're using something like iTunes to "import" them on to your computer and in the process it's converting the CD audio into compressed, lossy, audio files on disk like AAC or MP3. Try this: stick a CD in your drive, in My Computer right click on the CD and select 'Explore'. See how big each track is? That's uncompressed CD audio at its finest.

I think you just taught me something important, and didn't get me due to my ignorance...I didn't know you could apply different effects to the same track by spliting it up...do you simply cut it up into different sections without needing to shift each of those sections onto a new track?
Yes. If it's one continuous stream of audio you can use the scissor tool to split it up and apply treatments to each individual section. If they're already separate audio files you can select just the clip and apply a treatment without scissoring it. It's different from putting an effect on a channel: this is offline processing (but it's non-destructive and can be undone easily).

I can't recommend Cubase SX Power! (http://www.amazon.com/Cubase-SX-Power-Robert-Guerin/dp/1929685858) enough. Great book. It'll help you get a handle on your work flow in Cubase and be more productive.

[guitarose]

Originally posted by wren
I wouldn't because itunes and windows media player (but especially itunes) will do things to your audio files without telling you when they get imported into the library. Itunes does this little "leveling" thing (supposedly you can turn it off, but you actually can't in my experience) that supposedly equalizes the volume of all the tracks, and it always makes them louder. This is what you do during mastering, though; after you're done mastering, you don't want what you've done to be changed in any way. Itunes will change things, though, and I distrust windows media player enough to not want to use it.

Last spring, I did the sound for a performance of Dracula (I work in a theater). All the narration was prerecorded, and I got it all down, all sounding great, all volumes equal. Then I burned it with itunes, and one track (just one) was so stupidly loud compared to the rest. I thought I'd screwed up, so I went back and lowered the gain on that track by about 5 db. Still too loud. I lowered it by about 7 additional. Still too loud. Finally, I figured out that itunes was doing something that was making it louder once I imported it into itunes' library. I'd had it at the right volume to begin with, and itunes was screwing it up.

point made!...but when the mixed down track appears with an itunes file, does that mean it's worked it's evil spell on it, or is it as it was before? should I change the settings to not automatically be an itunes file?

[guitarose]

Originally posted by iaresee
You can just fake the organisation and stuff in your ISRC code. There might be a code for a catch-all organisation, I can't remember now.

Forgive me, but :confused: ...what is the ISRC code?

Originally posted by iaresee
wren said it already: because iTunes and WiMP do things to your tracks and embed information in the CD that you don't want there. Like CD Text so the song titles show up on the display in your Chrysler. That stuff is not standard. You don't want that junk in the trunk on a master CD that's destined for the duplicator or anything like that.

Sure. though is there a way to add track titles etc?

Originally posted by iaresee

Yes, when you do File -> Export -> Audio Mixdown... you get to choose the resolution and the bit rate. At least I see these choices in Cubase SX 3.

My bad...I'm probably confusing people with all the questions...I see hose options too; i'm refering to dither..where and how do i apply that, and does it have any options to adjust?

Originally posted by iaresee

Yes. If it's one continuous stream of audio you can use the scissor tool to split it up and apply treatments to each individual section. If they're already separate audio files you can select just the clip and apply a treatment without scissoring it. It's different from putting an effect on a channel: this is offline processing (but it's non-destructive and can be undone easily).

What treatments are you refering to? I generally use the channel thing for treatment (hence my surprise at this option).

And random question; if I have a compressor switched on in the inserts during recording, does that affect the incoming audio, so switching it on or off makes no difference?


Originally posted by iaresee
I can't recommend Cubase SX Power! (http://www.amazon.com/Cubase-SX-Power-Robert-Guerin/dp/1929685858) enough. Great book. It'll help you get a handle on your work flow in Cubase and be more productive.

Would it be worth it for Cubase LE?

[iaresee]

Originally posted by guitarose
Forgive me, but :confused: ...what is the ISRC code?
International Standard Recording Code. When you burn your final mastered CD-R include one in the image. See this (http://www.ifpi.org/content/section_resources/isrc.html).

Sure. though is there a way to add track titles etc?
Red Book doesn't allow for it so I recommend not doing it. Of course if you're burning the disc to play in your home stereo go ahead. But you'll have to do it from some place other than Cubase or Wavelab -- they only support Red Book AFAIK.

My bad...I'm probably confusing people with all the questions...I see hose options too; i'm refering to dither..where and how do i apply that, and does it have any options to adjust?
No clue on that one man. You got me there.

What treatments are you refering to? I generally use the channel thing for treatment (hence my surprise at this option).
Treatements = EQ, multi-band compression, etc. Anything you can put on an channel insert (read: any VST plugin) you can apply directly to a track without using it as an insert. Of course, it's not quite a flexible as doing at as an insert, but you can lay your project out with multiple tracks if you want to go the insert-per-track route. I don't have a particularly powerful DAW so I'm always using the Freeze function on my channels and applying treatments directly to samples whenever I can to keep my CPU utilization down. More inserts == more CPU used during playback.

And random question; if I have a compressor switched on in the inserts during recording, does that affect the incoming audio, so switching it on or off makes no difference?
So there are two types of channels (well, technically three but for this discussion lets say two) in your mixing view: input channels are in the incoming audio streams from your I/O card. And then playback channels are all the audio channels that have bits of audio for playback. If you put a compressor on an input channel when you're recording it's captured in the recorded WAV file on disk. If you use compressor on an effect insert on a play back channel it's non-destructive and applied real-time when ever you hit the play button. The underlying WAV file is unaffected (unles ss you hit the freeze button for that track). When you mix down to a stereo interleaved track all the real-time effects on the inserts are permanently applied to the output stream.

Would it be worth it for Cubase LE?
With the questions you're asking I don't think it would hurt. Maybe see if there's an LE version of the book? Or upgrade to SE. Worth the cash if you ask me. I don't think LE has a track freeze function which is one of those features I can't live without. Extends the life of your aging hardware big time.

[guitarose]

Originally posted by iaresee
International Standard Recording Code. When you burn your final mastered CD-R include one in the image. See this (http://www.ifpi.org/content/section_resources/isrc.html).


The site won't load, so I'll come back to that another time.

Originally posted by iaresee

Red Book doesn't allow for it so I recommend not doing it. Of course if you're burning the disc to play in your home stereo go ahead. But you'll have to do it from some place other than Cubase or Wavelab -- they only support Red Book AFAIK.

So when you buy a CD that does this does that mean it's not red book? I thought all pro releases were?

Originally posted by iaresee
No clue on that one man. You got me there.

But how do you actually apply dither? is it just a mixdown option?...like what do you (or anyone else) do?

Originally posted by iaresee

Treatements = EQ, multi-band compression, etc. Anything you can put on an channel insert (read: any VST plugin) you can apply directly to a track without using it as an insert. Of course, it's not quite a flexible as doing at as an insert, but you can lay your project out with multiple tracks if you want to go the insert-per-track route. I don't have a particularly powerful DAW so I'm always using the Freeze function on my channels and applying treatments directly to samples whenever I can to keep my CPU utilization down. More inserts == more CPU used during playback.

How do you apply treatments aside from inserts? And your DAW is cubase right? I thought that's pretty powerful..or are you talking about your actual system? What is the freeze function?

Originally posted by iaresee
So there are two types of channels (well, technically three but for this discussion lets say two) in your mixing view: input channels are in the incoming audio streams from your I/O card. And then playback channels are all the audio channels that have bits of audio for playback. If you put a compressor on an input channel when you're recording it's captured in the recorded WAV file on disk. If you use compressor on an effect insert on a play back channel it's non-destructive and applied real-time when ever you hit the play button. The underlying WAV file is unaffected (unles ss you hit the freeze button for that track). When you mix down to a stereo interleaved track all the real-time effects on the inserts are permanently applied to the output stream.

So is the input channel external of cubase/related to the i/o card (so my focusrite saffire)...Like I had it set in the track i was recoding to in cubase.

Originally posted by iaresee
With the questions you're asking I don't think it would hurt. Maybe see if there's an LE version of the book? Or upgrade to SE. Worth the cash if you ask me. I don't think LE has a track freeze function which is one of those features I can't live without. Extends the life of your aging hardware big time.

Where do i find the freeze function if it's there?..I'll have a look..

how much is the upgrade?..I'm not yet very heavily into recording - shuold I wait and upgrade later as necessary? I also can't see myself using much midi stuff for a while either..I'm currently a volunteer - so no cash for me!

And doesnt the few hundred page long manual cover most things?

[Moo]

You apply dither as a plugin on the master bus. It's often part of a maximizing limiter. I don't remember the exact details or circumstances where you need to use it. The options are usually what bit depth you're going to/from and the noise shapes.

[guitarose]

Originally posted by Moo
You apply dither as a plugin on the master bus. It's often part of a maximizing limiter. I don't remember the exact details or circumstances where you need to use it. The options are usually what bit depth you're going to/from and the noise shapes.

Cool. I thought it's necessary when recording above CD quality (ie most/all of the time).

Also, would 24/96 yield the same size mixed down interleaved file as 24/44.8? is the file size difference in the project section, rather than the final result?

And when mastering, can you import a stereo file with the itunes icon on it?

Also, when mixing, I had a track sounding fine,but then through my ipod headfones the treble was way too piercing...should I mix with headphones? I thought monitors are meant to help get good mixes?

[Moo]

I think you're right, looking at wiki it says you're supposed to dither when changing from 24 bit to 16.

In a perfect world, good monitors in a good room will give accurate mixes. You don't always have either (unless you have a fat wallet) so it's a good idea to check your mixes on as many devices as you can. ipod, car stereo, hi-fi, laptop speakers, whatever you can get your hands on.

A 24/96 file should be bigger file wise than a 24/48, whether its in your DAW program or a WAV file. Cubase uses WAV files for source, so it's the same, you just have all 8 or 10 tracks so it's that much bigger. I don't know about any other DAWs. Icons are just icons, they just indicate default file associations. You can open files with whatever program can open them.

[iaresee]

Moo answered a bunch of this. I'll try and fill in the holes where I can.

Originally posted by guitarose
So when you buy a CD that does this does that mean it's not red book? I thought all pro releases were?
Maybe, maybe not. If it has CD Text on it, it's not red book and therefore not guarantee to play in a CD player that has that little icon on it. It probably will, but there's not guarantee.

But how do you actually apply dither? is it just a mixdown option?...like what do you (or anyone else) do?
So here's my (limited) understanding of dithering: you apply it to the stereo master when you mix down to 16 bit, so when you're preparing your final tracks for burning to the red book CD. Dithering helps the downsampling conversion process by trying to be intelligent about what gets left on the cutting room floor so to speak when you're dropping the bit rate. Moo said as much.

How do you apply treatments aside from inserts?
You can apply effects and such directly to a clip. Select the clip and then look in the Edit menu. Every plugin effect you can run on an insert can be applied offline like this.

And your DAW is cubase right? I thought that's pretty powerful..or are you talking about your actual system?
The DAW is the sum of the parts: the computer, the I/O interface, the software running on it. At least, that's how I see it. My PC is 7 years old now. It's about to get relegated to file-server-in-the-closet status as I'm going all Mac around here in the new year. iMac for the wife. Mac Book Pro for me.

What is the freeze function?
It takes all the effects you're running on inserts and applies them directly to the clips in the track offline so they don't use up CPU during play back. One of the best features Cubase SX 3 had with it. You can freeze VSTi's too -- so CPU-heavy VSTi instruments can be turned into WAV file tracks with the click of a button, and then turned back into MIDI/VSTi tracks with another click so you can change things. See: http://www.steinberg.net/1003+M52087573ab0.html -- it explains freeze way down near the end.



So is the input channel external of cubase/related to the i/o card (so my focusrite saffire)...Like I had it set in the track i was recoding to in cubase.
I'm not sure what you're saying here.

Where do i find the freeze function if it's there?..I'll have a look..
See this picture: http://ian.coastpedalboards.com/images/stories/gg/sx3audiowarp1.l.jpg -- it's the button the big red arrow I drew is pointing at. If that button is displayed in colour the track is "frozen".

how much is the upgrade?..I'm not yet very heavily into recording - shuold I wait and upgrade later as necessary? I also can't see myself using much midi stuff for a while either..I'm currently a volunteer - so no cash for me!
Do what you can with what you have. I don't think the upgrade is worth the money if you're making your music just fine with Cubase LE.

And doesnt the few hundred page long manual cover most things?
Yes and no. A manual is written more as reference than a tutorial. It might tell you how to do something but not why you should do something. And in software as complicated as Cubase there's more than one way to do most things. That book is more about good work flow and practices in Cubase than just "how to make sounds record in Cubase". For example: if I asked you to beat align a 120 BPM drum sample to a 118 BPM project would you know how to do it using the manual? Nope. It doesn't get into the bigger work flow problems. It'll tell you how to open up the beat detection and time stretch tools and that's it. The book will help you.

[guitarose]

Originally posted by Moo
A 24/96 file should be bigger file wise than a 24/48, whether its in your DAW program or a WAV file. Cubase uses WAV files for source, so it's the same, you just have all 8 or 10 tracks so it's that much bigger. I don't know about any other DAWs. Icons are just icons, they just indicate default file associations. You can open files with whatever program can open them.

I meant when mixed down to a 16/44.1 stereo interleaved track, ready for CD.

Also, do you only mix-down to a lower bit and sample rate once mastering has been completed, or to prepare the files for mastering?

Thanks for the other info

[guitarose]

Originally posted by iaresee
Moo answered a bunch of this. I'll try and fill in the holes where I can.

And thanks to the both of you :)

Originally posted by iaresee
So here's my (limited) understanding of dithering: you apply it to the stereo master when you mix down to 16 bit, so when you're preparing your final tracks for burning to the red book CD. Dithering helps the downsampling conversion process by trying to be intelligent about what gets left on the cutting room floor so to speak when you're dropping the bit rate. Moo said as much.

So...just to clarify (sorry about this!)...just before you're about to export the final stereo interleaved file, mixed down to 16/44.1, you add a master bus plug-in, and find the "dither" plugin?

Originally posted by iaresee
You can apply effects and such directly to a clip. Select the clip and then look in the Edit menu. Every plugin effect you can run on an insert can be applied offline like this.

But does that process and therefore change the original recording? or can it be switched on and off like a send or insert?

Originally posted by iaresee

The DAW is the sum of the parts: the computer, the I/O interface, the software running on it. At least, that's how I see it. My PC is 7 years old now. It's about to get relegated to file-server-in-the-closet status as I'm going all Mac around here in the new year. iMac for the wife. Mac Book Pro for me.

Gotcha..Out of interest, why the switch to mac...lots of opinions on this; i'm curious to yours.

Originally posted by iaresee
It takes all the effects you're running on inserts and applies them directly to the clips in the track offline so they don't use up CPU during play back. One of the best features Cubase SX 3 had with it. You can freeze VSTi's too -- so CPU-heavy VSTi instruments can be turned into WAV file tracks with the click of a button, and then turned back into MIDI/VSTi tracks with another click so you can change things. See: http://www.steinberg.net/1003+M52087573ab0.html -- it explains freeze way down near the end.

So you apply the effects as inserts, then freeze them in?

Originally posted by iaresee

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

Me neither! I was trying to clarify something you said, but lost myslef...nevermind!

Originally posted by iaresee

See this picture: http://ian.coastpedalboards.com/images/stories/gg/sx3audiowarp1.l.jpg -- it's the button the big red arrow I drew is pointing at. If that button is displayed in colour the track is "frozen".


I havent noticed that button before, but will double check..thanks for the pic

Originally posted by iaresee
Do what you can with what you have. I don't think the upgrade is worth the money if you're making your music just fine with Cubase LE.

Yup...for now this is fine. maybe in the future..

Originally posted by iaresee
Yes and no. A manual is written more as reference than a tutorial. It might tell you how to do something but not why you should do something. And in software as complicated as Cubase there's more than one way to do most things. That book is more about good work flow and practices in Cubase than just "how to make sounds record in Cubase". For example: if I asked you to beat align a 120 BPM drum sample to a 118 BPM project would you know how to do it using the manual? Nope. It doesn't get into the bigger work flow problems. It'll tell you how to open up the beat detection and time stretch tools and that's it. The book will help you.

Point made...will use the manual more for now, and take it from there..


thanks guys

[Moo]

Only sends and inserts act like sends and inserts. If you apply an effect directly to the file (called processing), it changes the file.

Now most programs make a copy of the file for editing, so if you open song.wav and start running effects directly on it, you're editing the copy. In a basic WAV editor, if you hit save, it'll save over the original song.wav(unless of course you do Save As and change the name).

This is common computer program behavior, for almost any type of file or editor. You're probably not using this kind of basic editor, anyhow.

Cubase has the Offline Process History option. If you're processing a WAV with effects, it will save it before and after each one, so you can go back and Undo and Redo. I'm not sure what its limits are; I think you can go all the way back to the beginning if you've saved the project file that you're using to edit the WAV.

[iaresee]

Originally posted by Moo
Only sends and inserts act like sends and inserts. If you apply an effect directly to the file (called processing), it changes the file.

<snip>

Cubase has the Offline Process History option. If you're processing a WAV with effects, it will save it before and after each one, so you can go back and Undo and Redo. I'm not sure what its limits are; I think you can go all the way back to the beginning if you've saved the project file that you're using to edit the WAV.
Exactly: Cubase makes a copy of the file and you can undo any bit of offline processing you've done at any time. The original is always preserved. I'll sometimes duplicate a track if I'm going to be doing a lot of heavy processing to it and keep a "clean" version of it muted, frozen, with no effects applied as a backup in the mix. Also nice if you want to mix back in a little bit of the original to a heavily processed track.

[iaresee]

Originally posted by guitarose
And thanks to the both of you :)
Any time. This has been a really pleasant distraction from changing diapers.

So...just to clarify (sorry about this!)...just before you're about to export the final stereo interleaved file, mixed down to 16/44.1, you add a master bus plug-in, and find the "dither" plugin?
Yes. If you're using a mastering program like SoundForge or Wavelab then export at a high bitrate and apply the dithering plugin in the mastering program.

Gotcha..Out of interest, why the switch to mac...lots of opinions on this; i'm curious to yours.
They're sexy. I'll be thinner, fitter and happier if I own a Mac. Right? :) I'm just smitten with them. Always wanted to try their vertically integrated approach. My 'rents just bought a Mac Book and it's super cool. Need a new computer any way, why not give it a whirl, right?

So you apply the effects as inserts, then freeze them in? I havent noticed that button before, but will double check..thanks for the pic

Yup. And you unfreeze when you want to change something and then re-freeze.

Point made...will use the manual more for now, and take it from there..
I wasn't trying to discourage you from asking questions here. Don't take that as me telling you to RTFM. I just never liked the Steinberg manual.

[guitarose]

Exactly: Cubase makes a copy of the file and you can undo any bit of offline processing you've done at any time. The original is always preserved. I'll sometimes duplicate a track if I'm going to be doing a lot of heavy processing to it and keep a "clean" version of it muted, frozen, with no effects applied as a backup in the mix. Also nice if you want to mix back in a little bit of the original to a heavily processed track.

I think I'll try it that way (if I can find the freeze function!); by copying and pasting the track, with one on mute as backup...thanks guys

Originally posted by iaresee
Any time. This has been a really pleasant distraction from changing diapers.

Nice. Good for both of us.

Originally posted by iaresee
Yes. If you're using a mastering program like SoundForge or Wavelab then export at a high bitrate and apply the dithering plugin in the mastering program.

I'll probably be using cubase for mastering too. I still do the same thing right?

Originally posted by iaresee
They're sexy. I'll be thinner, fitter and happier if I own a Mac. Right? :) I'm just smitten with them. Always wanted to try their vertically integrated approach. My 'rents just bought a Mac Book and it's super cool. Need a new computer any way, why not give it a whirl, right?

Right....coming soon...the new fitter you..

Originally posted by iaresee

I wasn't trying to discourage you from asking questions here. Don't take that as me telling you to RTFM. I just never liked the Steinberg manual.

Cool. No, its fine - i guess your point was it's quicker to have a book to hand; which is true. So I'll get one if I feel I really need to; for now I'll use the manual, this site and my intuition.

Btw, what's RTFM?

[Moo]

Read The F***ing Manual